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Do you support baby hatches?

  • Yes, one could argue that they save lives

    Votes: 10 76.9%
  • No, I don't support them (please state a reason)

    Votes: 2 15.4%
  • I'm not sure how I feel about them

    Votes: 1 7.7%

  • Total voters
    13

bakaKanadajin

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This is a fairly new concept to me. I read a short article about it the other day, basically it's a place where women can anonymously drop off their newly born children if they do not wish to care for them. It's kind of a ethical purgatory between abortion and adoption.

What do you people think of a baby hatch? Is it saving lives by giving women the ability to see a pregnancy through risk-free instead of aborting? Or are there other ethical issues there that make this a less attractive option than if it didn't exist?

http://www.japantoday.com/category/national/view/foreign-child-left-in-baby-hatch-in-kumamoto
 

Mikawa Ossan

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It seems to me to not be a new concept in Europe. Orphanages, churches, and the like have been doing this for years.

As for Japan...I don't know if it's a good idea or not. Although I do think that many people are not if ever ready to responsibly have children, I can't imagine that the long term effects of such places can be good for society as a whole.
 

Revenant

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Unwanted children have it harder, and their relationship styles (how trusting they are for example, and thus how tolerant they are) seem to be almost set in the first years of their lives, but that's not really a good argument for abortion, as a lot of unwanted children do find some measure of happiness. Having someone there to take care of them would of course be so much better than having parents that severely neglected them.

Abortion's just an extremely grey issue, and I doubt everyone could see abortion as acceptable, even among the Japanese, who don't believe in any religion, there are a lot of people opposed to abortion. A baby hatch might better for the child, seeing as either the mother really doesn't want the child, or she reasons she would have no way of giving the child a decent future.
 

Haruspex

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Hatch? Abort them before they do. Would be no need for this kinda expensive system if we could abort them from conception to birth, everywhere, without the obstacles moral crusaders are.
 

Revenant

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And you're going to convince every pregnant woman that doesn't want or can't support well a kid that they have to abort? Not likely at all to be honest. I don't think it has much to do with moral crusaders at all.
 

Revenant

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But's that's the entire point, despite a lack of moral crusaders in Japan and the Japanese being largely irreligious, there's still some opposition to abortion.
 

Haruspex

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Well, I'd rather have abortion than this, but I have to admit, it is a good alternative. It is still better than having to raise a kid a person doesn't want to, or going through orphanage paperwork and whatnot. Yet I have to say we better not get used to this. It might require more courage to have an abortion, but how I see this, it probably leaves an aftertase less bitter, and its not as hard on society (funding). If people get used to dumping children, we'll have Oliver Twists running all around. I mean, if someone's going to go for the easy way out, she should make sure there will be no crap for others to take care of.
 

Tsuyoiko

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I don't like this idea at all. It seems like a way to avoid responsibility for bringing a child into the world, and I can't see how it could possibly save lives.

Surely if a woman had proper care while she was pregnant, she would be made aware of the options: how she might manage to keep the child, abortion, adoption. The only reason I can see for using a baby hatch is if you never wanted anyone to know about the pregnancy, and in that case the woman probably didn't get the care she needed, and I would be very concerned for both her physical and mental health.

I also don't think it's fair on the child. I think everyone has a right to at least try to find out where they came from, and with adoption records it's at least possible to trace birth parents. But what effect is it going to have on a child if they find they were abandoned like that?

It seems to me to not be a new concept in Europe. Orphanages, churches, and the like have been doing this for years.

It might have happened in the past, but I'm not sure that people leave babies at orphanages or churches anymore. In the past when women had no access to abortion or adoption I guess it wasn't such a bad thing. But nowadays when there are far better alternatives I think it's a bad idea.
 

Mikawa Ossan

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I also don't think it's fair on the child. I think everyone has a right to at least try to find out where they came from, and with adoption records it's at least possible to trace birth parents. But what effect is it going to have on a child if they find they were abandoned like that?
Somehow I doubt that this is aimed at parents who care about what's "fair" for their children.
 

Haruspex

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Its really a smaller evil. I mean, its a better alternative than kids in the bins.
 

JimmySeal

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Somehow I doubt that this is aimed at parents who care about what's "fair" for their children.

Just because parents don't want to be fair to their children doesn't mean that hospitals and the government have to enable them.
 

Chirpy9

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I'm totally against this concept of Baby Hatch.
In the civilization of mankind, we've also learnt to respect a human life. This way, we do not respect the life we are bringing in this world. If its called Dumping, its also called running away from your responsibility, which I'm sure most of my friends here agree with me.
If you are not sure whether or not you'll be able to take this responsibility of bringing in a little one into this world, then why go for it in the first place??
 

undrentide

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Its really a smaller evil. I mean, its a better alternative than kids in the bins.

I agree with Derfel.
Of course people should take responsibility - when they ever have a baby, intentionally or by accident, they should take care of it.

But how much we are against it, there are always those who abondon babies. Banning such a system (I mean baby hatch) does not eliminate/solve the problem.

Sometimes we hear the sad news about babies found in a public toilet, park, etc., sometimes dead, sometimes alive. At least this sysmte helps some of those unfortunate babies.
As Derfel mentioned, "better alternative than kids in the bins".
 

Ashikaga

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I voted for #1.

While I find the idea of it as one of the choices a parent has IS rather troubling, I don't think I cannot argue strongly enough against it.

Sure, parents should be responsible in taking care of their babies but the reality is, not all parents are capable of that. Some might say that we should just say to the parents "Tough! You made it, you raise it!" but it is the baby who gets the short end of the stick when the parents just cannot do it. How many times do we hear or read about children being neglected, abused and even simply abandoned?

Yes, it should be THE last resort but when I try to imagine the alternatives, I'd have to vote for the first choice on the list for the sake of the babies.
 

Kirakira1232

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In Australia the concept of a baby hatch and abortion has been strongly ignited in the press as of late...

Particularly after the body of a baby boy who was dumped by her mother outside a hospital died before he was found. Right now in the state of Victoria it is illegal to have an abortion at any stage of pregnancy other than for life threatening circumstances. However there is currently a bill being passed to allow for abortion to be allowed up to a certain number of weeks. And as expected parliament is divided right down the centre on whether to pass the bill or not.

Is abortion right or is it wrong? It really depends on whether you regard a foetus as a real live human or just a number of cells rapidly dividing. Its a rather cold way of putting it I know but thats the crux of the debate right now. At what point do we consider this "foetus" a human being?

Between the two options for the baby hatch, I selected the first one. Why? Because no child deserves to die dumped in the back of a trash can or at the door step of a hospital. Not all women have access to the appropiate care if they do not wish to raise their child. So as a complete and utter last resort then the baby hatch is much better than dumping the child in a basket outside a hospital.
 

Revenant

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In all the abortion debates that I've seen and been involved in, it seems that however the right to live or human being is defined, the measure can't be used consistently when applied to another scenario.

A fetus is just a clump of cells, but we wouldn't counsel a pregnant woman to drink.
 

Chirpy9

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Eight weeks after conception, everything that is present in a foetus, that's in a full-term baby. In the third month your "clump of cells" looks like a baby, with small cute fingers, toes, a pretty nose..
So where to draw the line?
The strange thing is, you hear people argue for abortion of capital punishment, then for legalized abortion in the same breath.

Talking about unwanted children and thus this concept of baby hatch. Well, they can be stopped by birth control.
But only if people find the necessity to go for it.
I know thats an ideal situation to think about. The world would have been so much better then!
 

JimmySeal

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Revenant said:
A fetus is just a clump of cells, but we wouldn't counsel a pregnant woman to drink.
I would counsel a pregnant woman to drink if she were about to have an abortion.
 

Revenant

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We can infer the child would want good health (thus we counsel against drinking), so we can also infer the kid would want it's life as well (but abortion's ok).

And from here I know the typical pro-choicer's response, and then people try to define what constitutes a human being with all the rights, and thereafter every measure whether pro-choice or pro-life gets cut down just for being inconsistent. In ethics, consistency is the aim, you should be able to take a measure and have it fit in another scenario (not abortion scenario). In the end it's far from as clear cut as pro-choicers or pro-lifers would like to make it out as.
 

scieck

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points of view

Too often this discussions are focused just on the baby or group of cells, I think the focus should be more with the mother.

It is said that there is not greatest love (unconditional) than the love of a mother, besides very rare exceptions I believe this to be true.

When a mother is forced to abort I am more sorry for the mother than the baby (or cells), and I think that is the mother that is in need of all the support and comprehension she can get. This type of support can only be offered when abortion is legal, often counseling and support actually make mothers change their mind.

When abortion is not legal, mothers often are forced to ask for help to untrained unprofessional people that offer no help or counseling, but are only after the money, the mothers are often mistreated and seriously risk their life.

I my opinion the above is enough reasons to be in favor of abortion.
Of course the aim is a win win situation, mother changes mind, baby is born we are all happy, this can only happen when a mother is not afraid of speaking out, can get trained support and can make informed chooses. (i.e. baby hatches, start a new family etc.).
 

Kirakira1232

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We can infer the child would want good health (thus we counsel against drinking), so we can also infer the kid would want it's life as well (but abortion's ok).
And from here I know the typical pro-choicer's response, and then people try to define what constitutes a human being with all the rights, and thereafter every measure whether pro-choice or pro-life gets cut down just for being inconsistent. In ethics, consistency is the aim, you should be able to take a measure and have it fit in another scenario (not abortion scenario). In the end it's far from as clear cut as pro-choicers or pro-lifers would like to make it out as.

True, neither scenario (pro-choice, pro-life) is ethically consistent. There is no escaping that abortion is a very emotional decision and there are far reaching consequences in both scenarios. If you believe in birth control then how can you be against abortion? Wouldnt eggs and sperm be equally as sacred as a rapidly dividing foetus? If that is the case then would masturbation or menstruation be seen as "murder" too? If we were to value eggs and sperm so highly.

I'm taking things to the extreme here but its incredibly murky waters. Pro-lifers also tend to be against stem cell research because it uses eggs that have the "potential for life". But that is another matter entirely.

In the end regardless of what happens, it is out of our hands, our focus should be how to support the mother (and possible child) if an unwanted pregnancy occurs. A baby hatch might be a final resort for a desperate young teenager.
 

Kinsao

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Yes the baby hatch is better than kids in bins. If I was to have a kid I would put it up for adoption, but I really don't know what the paperwork is like around this. If it's difficult or I'm told that I can't for whatever reason give the kid for adoption I would rather leave it in a baby hatch than have it aborted, then at least it has a chance, and maybe I can know it in later years at a time when I am then able to care for it.

On the other hand I can see how it could encourage irresponsibility and then kids growing up with sh*t lives; that's not good! Maybe the answer is actually more about putting kids for adoption; if people want to have the kid but don't want to keep it, is the state making it too hard for them to give it away in a more 'organised' manner? Because if they can already give it for adoption, why the need for the baby hatch?
 

JimmySeal

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We can infer the child would want good health (thus we counsel against drinking), so we can also infer the kid would want it's life as well (but abortion's ok).

Any kid that never gets around to developing a functioning brain cannot want anything, so that argument is absurd.

There's a lot of other faulty logic in your posts in this thread, but you're dragging the thread way off topic so I won't say any more.
 

Haruspex

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Eight weeks after conception, everything that is present in a foetus, that's in a full-term baby. In the third month your "clump of cells" looks like a baby, with small cute fingers, toes, a pretty nose..
So where to draw the line?
The strange thing is, you hear people argue for abortion of capital punishment, then for legalized abortion in the same breath.


Cute fingers, toes, nose? A stillborn child has those too, would you consider getting one of them? A burden is a burden regardless of whether it is cute or not.

Abortion and death penalty have radical differences. You are making the mistake of assuming that abortion is murder.
 
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