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Another WWII question. I will promise to tone down my negative feelings and be fair.

7 Mar 2004
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I have always wondered why Germany would ally with Japan. Do you really believe that if they did win WWII and conqured the world in an alternative history, do you believe that their alliance would last??

You see, Hitler claims that only a blonde hair, blue eye, white arayan person can become a "master race". Somehow for whatever strange reason he allies with someone halfway across the world that don't even fit in with Hitler's "master race" category.

Also during WWI Japan defeated Germany, so they were never really friends to begin with and if they are allies they were too far off to help each other. I often read about how often they failed to reinforce each other during WWII.

so here are my questions:

1) Is Hitler really just using Japan as a distraction?
2) If in an alternative history, they won the war, do you really believe Hitler could keep the promise not to destroy Japan?
3) What is the relationship between Japan and Germany? Ancestry?
4) Where did the Nazis get the idea that Japan is part of Europe in the first place? How are Japanese people considered equal to the Nazi's idea of "master race"??
5) Many people seem to just casually say that it is "just a alliance", but do you really believe that is the case?
6) Did Hitler and his Nazi minions made that ancestral link up?? Since when was Japan ever part of Germany??
7) I thought that Japanese people will treat German foreigners just like all other foreigners. and from the way foreigners are treated in those days, I don't think Hitler's alliance with Japan would last very long, what do you think?
8) Can a German become a Japanese citizen and actually be treated 100% equally as a native Japanese person in Japan easily? Or will they still somehow be considered foreigner? Is it easier to do for a German than an American or Middle Easterner? what about Japan today??
 
The governments of Germany, Italy and Japan, considering it as a condition precedent of any lasting peace that all nations of the
world be given each its own proper place, have decided to stand by and co-operate with one another in regard to their efforts in greater East Asia and regions of Europe respectively wherein it is their prime purpose to establish and maintain a new order of things calculated to promote the mutual prosperity and welfare of the peoples concerned. Furthermore, it is the desire of the three governments to extend co-operation to such nations in other spheres of the world as may be inclined to put forth endeavours along lines similar to their own, in order that their ultimate aspirations for world peace may thus be realized.

In otherwords: We conquer carve up the globe and all other nations will serve us, against their will of through co0operation. Anyone that doesn't fit in will be wiped out. The list of those open to persecution was by no means exhaustive. As the borg would say "you will adapt to service us." :D


Japan recognizes and respects the leadership of Germany and Italy in establishment of a new order in Europe. Germany and Italy recognize and respect the leadership of Japan in the establishment of a new order in greater East Asia.
So this basically states that the only govounments they recognise are the others who have the same attitudes as themselves. So at the time this was written if a war broke out it'd be them against the world. So they did respect each other, Especially Germany and Japan who both had military high commands and leaders.

Germany, Italy and Japan agree to co-operate in their efforts on aforesaid lines. They further undertake to assist one another with all political, economic and military means when one of the three contracting powers is attacked by a power at present not involved in the European war or in the Chinese-Japanese conflict.
In other words, conduct your affairs as you see fit and we'll turn a blind eye to any atrocities.


I have always wondered why Germany would ally with Japan. Do you really believe that if they did win WWII and conquered the world in an alternative history, do you believe that their alliance would last??
Possibly. Germany did have great respect for Japan and its military strength, especially during the pre-Pearl Harbour strike. Hitler actually commissioned a group of scientists to 窶徘rove窶 Japan窶冱 Aryan decadency and the adoption of the swastika was no coincidence either. Italy on the other hand, would probably have been smashed after an axis victory, Hitler was fond of Mussolini but I doubt he'dhave wanted Italian interference in running Europe.

Where did the Nazis get the idea that Japan is part of Europe in the first place? How are Japanese people considered equal to the Nazi's idea of "master race"??
This is answered in the above quote from the pact. You can actually buy copies of it if you look hard enough.

To sum up though "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." Is a darn good way to put it if somewhat simplified.
 
mecharmor23 said:
1) Is Hitler really just using Japan as a distraction?
2) If in an alternative history, they won the war, do you really believe Hitler could keep the promise not to destroy Japan?
3) What is the relationship between Japan and Germany? Ancestry?
4) Where did the Nazis get the idea that Japan is part of Europe in the first place? How are Japanese people considered equal to the Nazi's idea of "master race"??
5) Many people seem to just casually say that it is "just a alliance", but do you really believe that is the case?
6) Did Hitler and his Nazi minions made that ancestral link up?? Since when was Japan ever part of Germany??
7) I thought that Japanese people will treat German foreigners just like all other foreigners. and from the way foreigners are treated in those days, I don't think Hitler's alliance with Japan would last very long, what do you think?
8) Can a German become a Japanese citizen and actually be treated 100% equally as a native Japanese person in Japan easily? Or will they still somehow be considered foreigner? Is it easier to do for a German than an American or Middle Easterner? what about Japan today??
Answers:
1 & 5: It was a strategic alliance, no more, no less. Up to 1938 (clandestine maybe even longer) Germany supported China in its fight against Japan, for military economical reasons. Only when it became ever clearer that Japan would be more useful against England (& perhaps the Soviet Union) the German support for China began to cease.

2 & 7: You never know what would have happened, but why should Germany destroy Japan? They already agreed on spheres of interest. The alliance probably would have lasted as long as it was useful.

3: No ancestry. The relationship varied over time, from enemy to ally.

4 & 6: Japan part of Europe, even of Germany? Where did you get that from? Any sources?
Japanese were not considered equal. E.g. marriages between Germans & Japanese were forbidden, only very few exceptions were made. Only from 1936/38 on the propaganda began to show Japan in a better light.


BTW, a summary of the Three-Power pact is online available, you don't need to buy it:

 
Believe nati hatemongers had genuine purposes. For master stuff seems propaganda or brainwashing techniques to raise conformity, morale, military spirits, and to entice people to believe themselves to excel others. To go to war, people need to have some reward or to be conditioned in a certain environment, that would be like religion-wise jihad in Islamic nations, kamikaze nation-wide Shinto in Japan, inspired crusaders in westerners or some doctrine like reincarnation for a better life by suicidal mission found in some cults like aum Shinrikyo. So german people were pretty much in the calculated situations like in economic distress, being with handy scapegoat neighbours of Jewish people, and leaders of nazis. As parents disparage/ridicule/laugh at/... neighbours and kids will follow that way; likewise, the nation's leaders make a certain device that people will conform to it.
Or how about this one tells about a rumour of notes and Tibetans, apparently beyond race thing?!


So, guess in every nation or so on there are with certain proportions of smarter ones, smart ones, so so ones so on, see tiger woods in masters or Ichiro in Seattle mariners, common things about them other than not in whitish colour would be they had really positive reinforcements in their very early childhoods. So you are lucky if you had those or even prenatal stuff, maybe, maybe not...

So, perhaps axis power was a just joke, just part of a top-down military operation, whose purpose was to pull us into the wargame of ww2 by hooks of Tora Tora Tora etc...
 
Germany was ONLY allied to japan because Germany wanted Japan to hit the Soviet Union from behind, distracted. At the same time, Hitler's plan on invading the Soviet Union, Operation Barbarossa, would sweep throughout the Russian motherland.

And NO, Germany never got an idea of Japan being a European nation.

Germany, I mean The Third Reich, never saw Japan as their equal race. Mostly German General and Field Marshal (The Desert Fox) of Africa Corps Erwin Romel most definitely hated. I mean DESPISED that their glorious Third Reich of Nazi Empire was allied to a not other race than an Asian nation. And he was opposed to Hitler's idea allied to japan and dragging WW2. And that is probably why Romel tried to uprise his supporters and his soldiers to go against Hitler, and they also planned to assassinate Hitler, but the plan failed, and Romel committed suicide.

It is also mentioned in Hitler's autobiography in his journal that, after the Nazi empire conquered the Soviet Union, they would've got ready for invasion of America. And Hitler also planned to backstab Japan by using Soviet land for Third Reich's main base for invading china and japan.
 
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Soviet Soldier said:
It is also mentioned in Hitler's autobiography...

Just two brief remarks... I have never heard of Hitler's autobiography. Could you expand on this one?

Secondly, while I have no info about Japan's attitudes as an ally Rommel - unlike some of his braver staff members - was not actively involved in the July 20 plot against Hitler.
 
thomas said:
Just two brief remarks.... I have never heard of Hitler's autobiography. Could you expand on this one?
he's probably talking about "mein kampf"
 
mecharmor23 said:
You see, Hitler claims that only a blonde hair, blue eye, white arayan person can become a "master race". Somehow for whatever strange reason he allies with someone halfway across the world that don't even fit in with Hitler's "master race" category.

The irony with Hitler's aryan theory is that he himself had black hair and brown eyes. 😄 But worst of all, his genealogy made by historians after WWII showed that he might have had Jewish blood as well. Could he have been unconsciously frustrated not to be part of his ideal race, and decide to exterminate Jews to satisfy his own frustration ?

Also during WWI Japan defeated Germany, so they were never really friends to begin with and if they are allies they were too far off to help each other.

Alliance change easily with time. The USSR and USA were allied during WWII, but became instantly enemies once it was over. Japan was formerly allied with Britain in the early 20th century. Japan is a new comer in the Western world, but if you look back at European history, you'll see that every country has been allied or at war with any other country at a time in history. France and Britain who were allied during WWI and WWII have almost always been at war since the 100 years war in the late Middle Ages till the 19th century.

3) What is the relationship between Japan and Germany? Ancestry?

None historically or ethincally. Germany, Italy and Japan had however in common in the 1930's that they were extreme-right military dictatures, ultranationalist, racist and expansionist at the same time. They could only attract each other. What is more, they were all 3 "created" (let say unified) between 1860 and 1871 and were looking to assert their national identity in the world.

4) Where did the Nazis get the idea that Japan is part of Europe in the first place? How are Japanese people considered equal to the Nazi's idea of "master race"??

Nazi never thought of Japan has part of Europe. It is as strange that they would ally with Italy (not really blond with blue eyes), but the aryan theory was just rhetoric to stir up the masses. What they all 3 really wanted was be recognised internationally as major powers.

7) I thought that Japanese people will treat German foreigners just like all other foreigners. and from the way foreigners are treated in those days, I don't think Hitler's alliance with Japan would last very long, what do you think?

No. German living outside Germany (mostly in Eastern Europe) were the main pretext to annex first Austria (Anschluss), then Bohemia, then invade Poland in 1939 (because most of it was historically Germany, and Hitler said that lots of Poles were of German descent and should therefore join Germany). Anybody with blond hair and blue eyes, even in Jewish families could have their lives spared and be enrolled in the Nazi system as good Aryans.

8) Can a German become a Japanese citizen and actually be treated 100% equally as a native Japanese person in Japan easily? Or will they still somehow be considered foreigner? Is it easier to do for a German than an American or Middle Easterner? what about Japan today??

It's the same nowadays as it has always been. In Japan, someone who doesn't look Japanese and (not "or") wasn't born and educated as a Japanese, will not be accepted as such bu other Japanese. It doesn't matter how well adapted or how fluent is their Japanese, or how deep their knowledge of Japanese culture and customs.
 
Hi! I'm new and I probably don't post in this forums too much because my english skillz are poor, so I can't discuss conformtly, but anyway, I'm intersted in the theme...

Besides the historical and WWII facts, about the races... there's a theory that japanese people is actually a part of the race known as "Turanid", wich equals the aryans. This is not of public knownledge, but all the nazi parties in Japan go with it. (I'm not in any nazi party, if any ask)
Nowdays, there are Turanid movements and organizations in the countries wich the turanid race migth stay and interact one with other (Japan, Hungary, and Finland mostly), this is strange that this different countries could have the same race.. but there seems to be many proofs... I'm not too into the theme yet, though.
Anywho, chinese people says that Japanese aren't turanid, there are fights.

Sorry if my english is bad... and if anyone know something about this, tell!! I don't know more than this, its hard to find information about this... when I put "turanid" on google ther are a lot of web pages about "racism" "facist" and go on o_O;;

Bye bye! ^_^
 
queen of decadence said:
Besides the historical and WWII facts, about the races... there's a theory that japanese people is actually a part of the race known as "Turanid", wich equals the aryans. This is not of public knownledge, but all the nazi parties in Japan go with it. (I'm not in any nazi party, if any ask)
Nowdays, there are Turanid movements and organizations in the countries wich the turanid race migth stay and interact one with other (Japan, Hungary, and Finland mostly)...

The Turanids are the people who speak Ural-Altaic languages, that is Finnish, Estonian, Hungarian and some minor languages in Russia for the Ural group, and Mongolian, Manchu, Turkic, Tungusic, Uygur and Turkish for the Altaic group. Linguists often put Korean and Japanese in the Altaic group too, though there is less than 5% similarities between Mongolian or Manchu with Korean or Japanese, and less than 1% with others. Japanese is a very hybrid language, with around 50% of its vocabulary coming from Chinese (through the kanji), and a grammar very similar to Korean, but also with some similarities with Indonesia/Malaysian (politeness levels, pronuciation, some vocabulary...).

As Japanese has always imported words from other languages (recently English, French, German, Italian...), it doesn't mean that Japanese people are ethnically related to all these races of course. Suffice to look at the Japanese to see that they are racially similar to Korean and Chinese, then South-East Asians, before Central Asian or Hungro-Finnish. Actually Hungarian and Finnish people might have come from Central Asia 1000 years ago, but the intermarriages with Europeans make them more ethnically European than Central-Asian now. So all this Turanid propaganda is really just self-deception. The same goes for Turks, who are heavily mixed with the original (already very mixed) Byzantines, and probably more Byzantine than Central-Asian too.

Finally, Aryans (Germanic, Celtic, Latin, Greek, North-Indian...) are not related to Turanids, except for the mixed Fins, Hungarians and Turks, who are partly Aryan, partly Turanid.
 
queen of decadence said:
(Japan, Hungary, and Finland mostly), this is strange that this different countries could have the same race.. but there seems to be many proofs...

Hmm, I think, Maciamo has brought the main points I wanted to post as well. I'm too slow, it seems. What could be added, though, is the fact that it is simply not true that the inhabitants of these countries are closely related.

If you take Cavalli-Sforza as a reference for genetic distance, most closely related to Japanese are
1 Mongol Tungus
2 Korean
3 Ainu
4 Tibetan
5 South Chinese
6 North Turkic
7 Uralic
8 Chuckchi
9 Central Amerindian
10 North Amerindian
...
22 Lapp
 
I read a Japanese history book novel once, and it is said that Japanese and Koreans are somehow the same people. Before forming a Yamato clan, they somehow broke away, and part of the Japanese people moved to the southern part of Korea (South Korea nowadays). This has not yet confirmed in Korea, but they do look like a lot of each other. Koreans and Japanese facial resembles almost exactly similar, more than Chinese which Chinese has more tan and darker skin than Koreans and Japanese. By the way, before when Buddhism spread throughout eastern Asia, both Japanese and Koreans believed in the same god or, should I say, a god which they believed to be very similar. But it is also said Koreans got eventually influenced by Chinese characteristics of the writing system and customs and even the calendars, unlike Japanese.
 
Soviet Soldier said:
But it is also said Koreans got eventually influenced by chinese characteristics of writing system and customs and even the calendars, unlike Japanese.

Japan also owes much of its culture to China, at the very least as a jumping off point to develop something more Japanese.

The Chinese zodiac, kanji, many superstitions (like some days being auspicious (taian) while others unlucky (butsumetsu), religion, government (often Confucian inspried), social ideals, artistic styles, architectual and landscape design, even things like pottery and metal working.

Thsi is not to say that the Japanese did not come up with anything on their own, nor that they didn't succeed in making their own wonderful, unique and creative things from Chinese/Korean ideas. However, it is wrong to say Japan was completely free from mainland influence.
 
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mecharmor23 said:
Also, during WWI, Japan defeated Germany, so they were never really friends, to begin with, and if they are allies, they were too far off to help each other. I often read about how often they failed to reinforce each other during WWII.

Japan Never fought with the Germans during WW1. Japanese only signed an alliance with the allies and China to support the allies against the Central Powers. By the way, Germany was never defeated by the Allies. They actually surrendered because they knew they couldn't win by fighting on both 2-3 borders.
 
I think allied forces marching into Berlin counts as being defeated. Unconditional surrender is also a halmark of losing.
 
Germany surrendered before the allies forces marched to the Berlin. Defeat and surrender are two different meanings. When the Soviets forced through the heart of Berlin into the Reichstag, it was the dawn of defeat of the Third Reich, unlike Germany surrendered before the allies forced their way into Germany during at the end of WWI.

Germany had enough supply and weapons to keep fight during WWI, but they knew what end would be like. They knew they would lose from being sandwiched by the Allies.
 
Ah, I see, I misread. Sorry about that. I missed that you were talking about WWI and not WWII. Yes, you are correct about WWI. I was talking about World War Two.
 
Soviet Soldier said:
Germany surrendered before the allies forces marched to the Berlin.

My understanding was that Allies sandwiched Berlin and destroyed 80% of the building during the heavy fighting that took place there at the end of the war. I have lived in Berlin and confirm that most of the city was completely flatenned and rebuild after WWII.
 
Tone down? Why don't you cut it out all together?

This forum is for people who are interested in Japan and want to learn and have something to contribute.
 
In all fairness Golgo 13, Mecharmor23 is making an effort. He has a right to feel negative about Japan if he/she wants. The trouble will be if he decides not to fairly evaluate the information he/she might gather and remain open to maybe turning those negative feelings into positive.
 
Hmm maybe some of you are right about European corruption that lead to WWII.
Anyways, I just checked abit about Japanese history shortly after America's independance day.

It appears that the Axis powers where funded AND equiped by the US and the British. The US foreign policy seems to be corrupted and flawed right from the start. Alot of weapons where shipped to Japan during the time. Without these weapons and outside resources, Japan would never have had the motivation to expand.

George W.Bush's ancestors, have been known to fund the Axis, especially Nazi Germany. That amount is tremendous, I forgot the exact amount. There seems to be something within the CIA, Bush, and some extreme right wings that makes them fund world wide conflicts even before WWII.

India and Pakistan, were supposed to be allied together along time ago. It seems that the conflict has begun between the two the moment the British military stepped in... now those 2 countries(India and Pakistan) can go into a nuclear conflict at anytime....

Anyone agree that WWII was motivated by the victors(england, usa, etc) in the first place? I recently noticed that alot of Japanese and German weapon prototypes and models up to and including individual parts were made in USA.

The Arisaka rifle seems to have some resemblance to the '03 Springfield rifle used by the Americans during WWII.

Perhaps it is the european imperialists and the corrupted US foreign policy that gave the Japanese a negative view of foreigners??

what do you think?
 
mecharmor23 said:
It appears that the Axis powers where funded AND equiped by the US and the British.

George W.Bush's ancestors, have been known to fund the Axis, especially Nazi Germany. That amount is tremendous, I forgot the exact amount.

Anyone agree that WWII was motivated by the victors(england, usa, etc) in the first place? I recently noticed that alot of Japanese and German weapon prototypes and models up to and including individual parts were made in USA.
I wonder where you get your historical "knowledge" from.

The USA & Britain never "funded" or equipped the Axis, there were economical relations, but that was just common business. Some US industrialists had very good relations to the Nazis (eg. Ford), but you can't call that "funding the Axis".
I don't know about Japan, but German weapons were mostly own developments. Of course they looked what others had & tried either to adopt or improve foreign technology, but they were not dependent on help from abroad.

WW II in Europe very probably was motivated by the victors of WW I. If they had imposed more reasonable measures against the losers (esp. Germany) WW II probably wouldn't have happened the way it did.
The Pacific theatre though..., who knows?
 
Interesting thread.

Some points:

Certainly the Axis was a marriage of convenience. It was however a rather disfunctional arrangement.

Germany was not consulted, warned or even informed of Japan's plans to attack Pearl Harbor. The high command would have probably pressed for a later start date for Barbarrossa if they knew the US would be joining the war.

Hitler did declare war on the US after Pearl Harbor. Japan however did not declare war on the Soviet Union.

Toward the end, Germany sent some jet and rocket technology to Japan. With this exception, throughout the war, neither seemed to support the others efforts tactically, strategically or materially.

Interesting footnotes: In Manchuria a German diplomat was instrumental in saving foreigners and Chinese civillians from Japanese atrocities. In Russia, a Japanese diplomat aided Jews fleeing Hitler's Holocaust. You find good people in strange and unexpected places.

The Springfield 1903 and the Arisaka are rather similar because they both have a common ancestor to the Mauser '98. All three can trace their bolt action recievers to the German Commish '88 (8mm Mauser).

Germany, Italy and Japan all had similar facist governments. Japan had long looked to Germany as the pre-eminent european power and modeled much of the government structure after Hindenburg's Germany. (They also liked a lot of American stuff too.)

Anyway I'm glad this marriage didn't work out, or produce children. I'm certain if they had any real connection or affinity WWII would have been longer and bloodier.
 
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The German nazi's could have respect for other races they regarded as "pure", but had contempt for races they regarded as "mixed". In that way, they could find an ideological base for their alliance with Japan, I guess, as Japanese also regarded themselves as pure and unique.

Quite ironic though, as the Germans themselves are a quite mixed group, due to their location in central Europe, and numerous migrations and invasions through the ages.
 
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