Absolutely stumped by two sentences I feel I should know

[PetCal23]

Hi all. I am studying for the N2 test and came across these two sentences, which completely stumped me. Last time I posted here I was asked to provide a guess, so below each one I will give my best effort. But it certainly isn't enough. Cheers

災害に強いまちづくりや家づくりをしなければならないのに、ついつい災害を忘れてしまうからです。
> Even though strong houses and towns must be built for disasters, we occasionally forget ????

例えば、在宅を新築したとします。我が国では、建てた最後、家の手入れを積極的にやらないのが一般的です。
> For example, building new houses??? In our country, no sooner than a house was built, it is usual to have to make repairs ???

My befuddlement at these sentences is probably not a positive indicator that I'm ready for the N2.

 

[Toritoribe]

災害に強い modifies まちづくりや家づくり, not just 強い.
ついつい means more likely "unconsciously/unintentionally" rather than "occasionally". Check your dictionary again.

Isn't it 住宅を新築した and 建てたら最後?
Do you understand the meaning of 例えば～とします?
やらない is simply a negative form of やる. You seem to confuse it with やらなければならない.
You misunderstand ～たら最後.

さいご【最後】 の英語・英訳
2 〔「…したら最後」の形で，それきり〕
言い出したら最後，後へは引かない
Once he says something, he will never back down.
彼ににらまれたら最後だ
If you rub him the wrong way [If you get on his wrong side], you're done for.

最後の英語・英訳 - goo辞書 英和和英

My befuddlement at these sentences is probably not a positive indicator that I'm ready for the N2.

I'm afraid I have to agree with that...

 

[joadbres]

In Japanese, not all clauses that end in のに convey the meaning "even though". I am not certain, but I think the example here does not. I recommend NOT reflexively translating のに to "even though" whenever you see it, but rather make sure you are parsing the full sentence and understanding the context.

My befuddlement at these sentences is probably not a positive indicator that I'm ready for the N2.

Actually, the passing threshhold for that test is quite low. You don't have to understand every little thing in every sentence. I think that you are on the right track. Just keep studying as you are, and you should be OK.

 

[Toritoribe]

のに actually means "even though" there. That's why I didn't correct it.
There is a significant difference between やらない and やらなければならない. Even beginner learners must realize it, I believe.

 

[PetCal23]

Actually it is 建てたが最後...

Not to get personal, but I've studied Japanese for 7 years, use it 60% of the time on my job, and have given professional presentations in it. I can also manage to go to doctors to have skin examinations, prostate exams, and blood test results analyzed, so referring to me as a "beginner" is a little bit offensive. Because someone can't understand complex grammatical patterns and has trouble passing a standardized test in a language doesn't say all that much about their ability or the amount of time they've studied. Just saying

 

[OoTmaster]

Well for Toritoribe-San to say that it's normal for even a beginner to know the difference between やらない and やらなければならない is by no means an untrue statement. I'm personally preparing for the N4 and I know the difference between the two. やらない is the negative of やる while やらなければならない holds the meaning of having to do. I'm by no means near N2 but the last portion of the sentence I would say would be more along the lines of "It's typical to not do proactive house repairs/maintenance." I've found when learning a foreign language no matter your progress it's always good to remain humble and if it was simply a mistake on your part acknowledge it as a mistake and move on.

 

[Mike Cash]

There is a significant difference between やらない and やらなければならない. Even beginner learners must realize it, I believe.

Not to get personal, but I've studied Japanese for 7 years, use it 60% of the time on my job

And that's probably the biggest part of your trouble. It boosts your confidence in your inflated opinion of what your abilities are and makes you think the problem must be the stoopid tests instead of your own deficiencies.

referring to me as a "beginner" is a little bit offensive

He didn't refer to you as a beginner. He remarked that even a beginner should recognize the difference between two things you seem not to have recognized the difference between.

Because someone can't understand complex grammatical patterns and has trouble passing a standardized test in a language doesn't say all that much about their ability or the amount of time they've studied.

You are correct that it says nothing about the amount of time one has studied. You are incorrect about it not saying much about their abilities; it speaks volumes about their abilities. The test is dispassionate and impersonal....its assessment of the taker's abilities relies strictly upon demonstrated results and isn't deceived by its own misplaced pride.

You can't possibly look at and read correctly 住宅 (じゅうたく) and then type in 在宅(ざいたく) and not immediately go "Huh? 在宅 doesn't make any sense there!" and still try to say the problem is the test and not the fact that you really haven't learned Japanese anywhere near as well as you think you have. If your Japanese is as wonderful as you would have us believe it is then why aren't you here griping about N1 instead of N2?

The same is true of looking at

手入れをやらないのが一般です

and coming up with "it is usual to have to make repairs".

How in the hell can you look at something as basic and uncomplicated as that and do the biggest act of missing the boat since Noah's ark?

We've seen this before from your previous posts regarding your difficulties with the listening section. One can muddle one's way through daily life with quite a large amount of misunderstanding and get by with it. You think you know more than you actually do and that you understand more than you actually do and the proof of this is that when you are questioned and forced to demonstrate your knowledge of and understanding of what you were just exposed to you can't do it....and then instead of realizing you have deficiencies you get your back up in the air and decide there is something wrong with the test.

I guarantee you if the test people could follow you around in your daily life and ask you questions designed to check your correct understanding of the Japanese you encounter in your daily life you would do just as poorly as you are doing with the tests. There is no way you understand everything you hear in movies and television programs and then your listening skills go to sh!t on the much easier N2 listening test. There is no way you understand as much as you think you do of the Japanese used by those around you and yet still display the sort of troubles you display here.

You have managed to fool yourself that the fact you've studied Japanese for seven years is in and of itself indicative of some certain level of proficiency when in fact it means jack squat. And you have managed to fool yourself that because you're getting by in a mixed 60/40 Japanese-English workplace it must mean you have greater proficiency than you actually do. Hell, that kind of environment coddles and fosters one's ability to get through without having to actually correctly understand everything. Take your skills to some environment where you have to function 100% in Japanese 100% of the time and you'll be amazed and dismayed how very quickly your deficiencies manifest themselves.

I'm far from a fan of the whole JLPT thing and have my criticisms of it, but if you can't pass it because you can't demonstrate an ability to correctly understand the structures being tested and to answer correctly questions about what you have just heard said spoken more slowly and with vastly more clear diction than one usually encounters in real life.... the problem ain't the test....it's you.

Get over your misplaced sense of pride in your skills and go back and actually learn the stuff you think you must have learned by simple dint of having been at it for seven years.

 

[Toritoribe]

Actually it is 建てたが最後...

The meaning is the same as 建てたら最後...
Do you give up trying to understand those two sentences, by the way? Any response to the explanation about your misunderstandings? (We don't care at all if you leave yourself unable to understand those two sentences. It's just the probability of your not passing the test stays high.)

 

[PetCal23]

And that's probably the biggest part of your trouble. It boosts your confidence in your inflated opinion of what your abilities are and makes you think the problem must be the stoopid tests instead of your own deficiencies.

You think you know more than you actually do and that you understand more than you actually do and the proof of this is that when you are questioned and forced to demonstrate your knowledge of and understanding of what you were just exposed to you can't do it....and then instead of realizing you have deficiencies you get your back up in the air and decide there is something wrong with the test.

I have very little confidence in anything I do and never once criticized the content of the test.

Get over your misplaced sense of pride in your skills and go back and actually learn the stuff you think you must have learned by simple dint of having been at it for seven years.

Again, I have no pride in my skills. I was merely saying that implying my skills were "beginner" level, is a bit misinformed and offensive. The reason I was annoyed is because I came on here to get help with sentences translation I couldn't understand at the moment. I added that last tidbit as a casual way to express disappointment at my own ability to dedicated time to studying for the test and thought it would be somewhat well received in a jovial sense. Instead, what I got were condescending replies, implications that I am a "beginner," and then a page-long personal tirade attacking me, my "pride," and my supposed criticism of the test, which I never once criticized the content of.

I came here for help on something I was having trouble with at the moment and instead am two days in an internet argument with two people I don't even know, trying to justify why I asked these questions and why I am not a "beginner." I guess that's the way things roll on JREF...

And for the record, these were stupid questions that I asked. You're right in that me confusing "やらない and やらなければならない" is quite amateur and absolutely a dumb mistake. Does it mean that I don't know the difference of them and should study N5 grammar books? Or might I have just been frustrated, tired, and provided a lackluster translation at the given moment? My real problem was with the "建てたが最後," which I still don't quite understand, but it's fine.

 

[Toritoribe]

My real problem was with the "建てたが最後,"

Nevertheless, you did a typo exactly on the part, and didn't say anything in your reply about another typo or your misunderstanding we pointed out and explained. Instead, you just repeated the words of self protection. That's an enough reason to cause me lose the will to help you anymore. Good luck on your learning Japanese. Period.

 

[PetCal23]

Best of luck on your moderation of the forum.

 

[lanthas]

Since there were no further attempts at translating the sentences, I'll just give the solutions.

災害に強いまちづくりや家づくりをしなければならないのに、ついつい災害を忘れてしまうからです。

As Toritoribe pointed out, 災害に強い is one unit here: "strong against (= built to be able to resist) disasters." In addition, ついつい is "unintentionally", and the object of 忘れてしまう is once again 災害.

"This is because even though we're supposed to build infrastructure that's resistent against disasters, we forget about those very disasters before we know it."

例えば、住宅を新築したとします。我が国では、建てたが最後、家の手入れを積極的にやらないのが一般的です。

"...とする" is a pattern meaning "Assume that ..."
"For example, let's assume that/talk about the case when/... a new residence was built."

"...が最後、..." is a pattern meaning "Once ... happens, the bad thing ... follows."
"In our country, it's common not to do proactive (= preventive) maintenance on a house after it's built."