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~ように。

Robman

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Hello,

Today I have a question about the form of ~ように found in phrases such as:
無理しないでように
or
時間に遅れないように

What does the ~ように part actually mean?

Is it a shortening of ~ようにする ? This would seem to make sense as in both instances you're telling someone to try and do something. However, they're listed as separate uses in my grammar book.

Thanks!
 

Mike Cash

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Where did you see 無理しないでように ?

That's either a typo or you've conflated a couple of things.
 

Robman

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Hi, yeah you're right. I meant to say
無理しないように
 

Toritoribe

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Are those a complete sentence or just a clause? What is the explanation in your textbook?
 

Robman

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The book is just listing different uses, it doesn't have any explanation, unfortunately.

Regarding whether it's a clause or a sentence, I suppose that's part of my question.
When people say
無理しないように
Is something afterwards omitted? ように ... what?
Or is this a particular meaning of ように ?
 

Toritoribe

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If those are complete sentences, ように is treated like a sentence final particle. As you guessed, it's originally from ~ようにしなさい/してください.

ように【様に】
4 〔軽い命令〕
明日必ず来る様に
Be sure to come tomorrow.
ように【様に】の英語・英訳 - 和英辞書 - 英語辞書 - goo辞書

Whereas if those are just clauses, ~ように means "in order to".
e.g.
彼が無理しないように監視をつけた。
時間に遅れないように早起きした。

ように【様に】
3 〔…するために〕
列車に間に合うように早く家を出た
I left home early in order to catch the train.
会に遅れない様に急いだ
I hurried 「so as not to be [so that I wouldn't be] late for the meeting.
ように【様に】の英語・英訳 - 和英辞書 - 英語辞書 - goo辞書

Thus, they can be the same, and also they can be different. It totally depends on the context.
 

WonkoTheSane

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上を向いて歩こう (Sukiyaki) has a nice example of the 'so as not to' usage, I think:

上を向いて歩こう涙が溢れない様に。


Of course I might be wrong, others can correct me if so.
 
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Toritoribe

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Yeah, you are correct. That's an inversion; 涙がこぼれない(not あふれない;))ように上を向いて歩こう。 "I shall walk looking up so that my tears will not fall."
 

Mike Cash

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"Numerous examples" doesn't equal "different uses"

Perhaps you need a better book.
 

Robman

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"Numerous examples" doesn't equal "different uses"

Perhaps you need a better book.

The way they're listed in this particular book gives the impression that they are separate, distinct uses. I do own other grammar books, and I'd looked in those as well and not found an answer to my question, which brought me here.

I am, of course, very grateful that I was able to get an answer to my question.
 

Mike Cash

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Could you tell us which book it was, please?
 

Robman

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Well, the original book, which just had example sentences, was Mimi Kara Oboeru N3. I checked in Routledge's Japanese: A Comprehensive Grammar to try and find more information, but couldn't find a satisfactory explanation. This book didn't have the meanings for ~ように broken down in the same way that the link that Toritoribe shared does, and certainly, seeing it laid out in that way helped me to understand it. I'll be using that site to look things up more often.

Seeing it from that point of view, I think my lack of understanding of ~ように prevented me from being able to ask the correct question in the first place.
 

Mike Cash

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I'm not familiar with those books.

You might find this a useful reference:

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1431132482.944746.jpg


The series of grammar dictionaries from The Japan Times are full of examples, explanations, are as a set quite comprehensive, and are cross-indexed.

ImageUploadedByTapatalk1431132750.202538.jpg
 

Robman

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Thanks for the suggestions.

I'm sorry if you feel that I've posted unnecessarily, or wasted your time, I did make a real effort to find the relevant information before posting.
 

Mike Cash

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Thanks for the suggestions.

I'm sorry if you feel that I've posted unnecessarily, or wasted your time, I did make a real effort to find the relevant information before posting.

You've done nothing to apologize for.
 

Toritoribe

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Yes. I used hiragana because the original lyrics uses it. (Furthermore, the kun'yomi 零れる is out of Joyo kanji.)
 
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