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~てどうする and ~てどうしよう

raikado

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Hello,

What do ~てどうする and ~てどうしよう mean?

1) お前のために遊園地に来たんだぞ。お前が楽しまないで どうする!!
and here is one found on the net: それ聞いてどうするの(HOW IS THIS GOING TO HELP YOU!?)

From these it seems like V~てどうする means : "V will happen and then what will you do?". Is this right?

2) 私らと帰ってどうしようての? ( a guy was following two girls, and one of the girls says this)
another example: 〇〇のこと大好きすぎてどうしよう!(I like it so much I'm gonna die!)

This time I'd say it means "V is happening, what should I do", but it doesn't seem to fit the first sentence.

Also is that ての at the end of the first sentence https://jref.com/forum/learning-japanese-64/%82%C1%82%C4%82%F1%82%BE-giving-me-more-trouble-54705/#.U8EnePmSwgg?
 

Toritoribe

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~てどうする in the first examle expresses reprimand or encourage "Don't do / You shouldn't do".
e.g.
楽しまないでどうする
You shouldn't not enjoy! = You should enjoy!
そんなこと聞いてどうする
Don't ask such a thing! / You shouldn't ask such a thing!


それ聞いてどうするの
私らと帰ってどうしようての?
what will you do?
(Notice that these two examples are both questions.)


〇〇のこと大好きすぎてどうしよう!
what should I do?


As for ての, yes, that's the same as ってんだ. (ってんだ is used only by males, though.)
 

raikado

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それ聞いてどうするの
私らと帰ってどうしようての?
what will you do?
(Notice that these two examples are both questions.)
I'm not sure I understand this part. Do those translate as "what will you accomplish by asking that?" and "what will you accomplish by returning with us?"

Does it mean that てどうする and てどうしよう are interchangeable when they are used in questions? Is there no difference at all?
 

Toritoribe

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Not "~てどうする and ~てどうしよう are interchangeable" but "~てどうするの/んだ and ~てどうしようっていうの/んだ are interchangeable". They are not completely the same, of course. The nuance/implication can be changed depending on the context.

As for the meaning, the speaker might be just asking "what will you do after doing?" or might be saying "You can do nothing by doing / It's no use to do".
 

Majestic

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Or, as we say in English, "what's the big idea?", "what's the meaning of this?", "what the hell do you think you're doing?"

The speaker isn't really inquiring as to the specific meaning of the action. The speaker is expressing surprise, incredulity, alarm, at the action of the perpetrator. Similarly, in the Japanese expressions you have pointed out here the speaker isn't expecting an explanation so much as the speaker is expressing some surprise and frustration at the actions and attitudes of the other person.

We brought you all the way to Disneyland for chrissakes, what do you mean you're not having any fun?
You've been following us for the last three blocks. What's the big idea?


The above aren't meant to be translations of the Japanese sentences you provided, but maybe they will help you see the Japanese expressions in a different light.
 

Mike Cash

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It was all I could do to refrain from answering your original post with a simple;

知ってどうする?

But since the joke would be lost and the teaching point not quite made, I held back.
 

raikado

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So, what would the difference in nuance be between 私らと帰ってどうしようっての and 私らと帰ってどうするの.

Or between それ聞いてどうするの and それ聞いてどうしようっての.

Also, could you say それ聞いてどうするっての as well?
 

Toritoribe

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It totally depends on the context, as I wrote. For instance, if the speaker intends to mean "it's no use~", どうするの sounds stronger.

Yes for それ聞いてどうするっての.
 

raikado

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Yes but, I'm asking in this particular context. The guy is taking a route he usually doesn't take to walk with those girls. The girls notice this and then one of them says: 私らと帰ってどうしようっての. How does this differ from 私らと帰ってどうするの?

I am insisting on this so much because I don't understand at all how どうしようっての works, or why it works? Mainly, where does どうしよう come from?

Is it the volitional form of する? This seems weird because I thought that this can only be used when saying what you plan to do or to mean "let's do". But you said that it refers to the listener's actions.

Or I'm thinking that it could be し+よう, as in どうしようもない. But how does どうしよう translate? "what method"?
 

Mike Cash

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In the first case, it would be said teasingly, asking in a "what do you have in mind?" flirtatious way.

In the second case, it would be antagonistic, in a "you ain't getting none from us so bugger off" way.
 

Toritoribe

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"The context" includes the characteristics of the characters, the intonation, the relation among them, etc. etc...

しよう is the volitional form of する. You missed a fact that it's used with っての/というの, not just a simple question どうしよう?(しよう in どうしようもない is also the volitional form of する, by the way.)

Usage
In general, the volitional form expresses intention, such as in these cases:
  • In volitional ("let's" or "I shall") statements: 勉強しよう benkyō shiyō: "Let's study" or "I shall study".
Japanese verb conjugation - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
 

raikado

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Oh, I thought that どうしようもない wasn't volitional because of もない, and the fact that this should follow a noun.


Well, I just wanted to ask why is というの is so important, when I found this

さらに食べようっていうの?
You're going to eat on top of this?


From this sentence I understand that due to っていうの, 食べよう doesn't refer to the speaker's actions ( I plan to eat), but to the listener actions ("you plan to eat"). Do I understand this right? I had no idea that you could use the volitional like this.
 

Toritoribe

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Sorry, I was wrong. しよう in どうしようもない is actually "the -masu stem of する + 様", not the volitional form of する (e.g. やりようがない, not やろうがない). You mean this by "し+よう", right?

Your understanding is correct. Your example refers to the addressee's action/intention. You can think ~(よ)うっていうの as ~するつもりなの. It's asking the addressee's intention, and when it's used with sarcasm, it actually means "Don't do!", "You shouldn't do".
e.g.
さらに食べようっていうの? = さらに食べるつもりなの?( also can be used as もう食べないで)
私らと帰ってどうしようっての = 私らと帰ってどうするつもりなの( also can be used as 私らと帰らないで)
それ聞いてどうしようっての = それ聞いてどうするつもりなの( also can be used as それ聞かないで)
 

raikado

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Yes, that's what I meant. Sorry for that ambiguity, and thanks for helping.
 
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