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開く -> あく or ひらく?

healer

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ミラーさんにおそくまで開いている喫茶店を教えてもらいました。

My dictionary tells me both pronunciations, あく and ひらく can mean to open for business. Both are intransitive while the latter can also be transitive. How to determine which to say for opening for business especially in the above context?

おそい - 遅い or 晩い, should it be the latter in the above context?

There are often a few different versions of kanji for the same pronunciations under one headword. Among them specific one may be meant to be used in specific contexts though. Yet some is used for all types of context. I tend to use the first one that comes up if I don’t know better. Then I’ve also found it doesn’t matter which one to use in some cases.
 

Toritoribe

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ミラーさんにおそくまで開いている喫茶店を教えてもらいました。

My dictionary tells me both pronunciations, あく and ひらく can mean to open for business. Both are intransitive while the latter can also be transitive. How to determine which to say for opening for business especially in the above context?
Both are possible, but あく is more common "the shop is open".

おそい - 遅い or 晩い, should it be the latter in the above context?
遅い is more common. The reading 晩い is out of Joyo kanji.

There are often a few different versions of kanji for the same pronunciations under one headword. Among them specific one may be meant to be used in specific contexts though. Yet some is used for all types of context. I tend to use the first one that comes up if I don’t know better. Then I’ve also found it doesn’t matter which one to use in some cases.
Yes, there are many cases. One of the best way to avoid misusing kanji is to use hiragana. ;)
 

hirashin

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Japanese people usually read 晩 as "ban", for example, 今晩 (konban), 晩ご飯 (bangohan) and so on.
 

healer

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Thanks for the input.
I was asking if Toritoribe san meant to say the kanj 晩 is not in the 常用漢字 list. He was actually saying the kanji is from the list.
 

Toritoribe

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Notice that I wrote "The reading 晩い is out of Joyo kanji", thus, 晩 is Joyo kanji, but 晩い(おそい)is not, as same as the reading みる for 観る, 視る or 看る.
 

healer

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Sorry Toritorib-san I've got confused.
First of all when you say "晩い is out of Joyo kanji", it meant "晩い is from the Joyo kanji list" to me. Secondly when we talking about Joyo kanji, aren't we talking about kanji without okurigana?

"The reading 晩い is out of Joyo kanji",
What were you trying to say with the wording "reading", pronunciation? I'm not sure what you were trying to say.
As I don't follow what you said, I can't relate this to みる for 観る, 視る or 看る.
 
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healer

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The point is that the kanji 訊 or the reading みる for 観る, 視る or 看る are out of 常用漢字. Roughly speaking, it's not wrong to use the kanji 聞く or 見る for all the meanings.
I took reading you meant pronunciation there. On second thought, I think I didn't understand what you said there as much as I should have. I had taken" 観る, 視る or 看る are out of 常用漢字" that you meant 観, 視 and 看 are from 常用漢字. You also seem to say one can use any kanji given under the same headword in the dictionary
 

Toritoribe

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Yes, I meant "pronunciation" by reading, and menat "not in" by "out".

You don't know that the Joyo kanji list is not just a list of kanji but it also prescribes the readings of each kanji, by any chance? See No.1679 (or No.288 for 観, No.792 for 視, No.257 for 看) in the list in the following wikipedia page. Only the readings バン(katakana means this is on'yomi) is applied to 晩 in the Joyo kanji list, thus, the reading/pronunciation 晩い(おそい) is out of(= not in) Joyo list.

No one reads 晩い as ばんい. Okurigana shows that it's a verb or an adjective, i.e., it should be read as a verb/an adjective.

You also seem to say one can use any kanji given under the same headword in the dictionary
I didn't say that. For instance, 看る is never used for "to see" or "to watch". What I said is that you can use both 見る and 観る for to "to watch" even though 観る is out of (= not in) Joyo list.
Incidentally, 晩い is rather uncommon than 観る. In fact, I've never seen 晩い is really used.
 

healer

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I thank Toritoribe-san for all the patience of the world.

I did see the reading column but I didn't know it would have shown every reading allowed for one kanji. I had taken they were just some examples. When dictionaries include different kanji's for the same reading, I infer that the quoted kanji must have all such alternative readings. For example, when I entered おそい it came up with 遅い, 晩い, 晏い of the same meaning. So I just supposed these three kanji's 遅, 晩, 晏 can also be read as おそ. I can see from the list only 遅 has that reading while 晏 is not in the list at all. All in all it looks like I can't go by the dictionary only for Japanese language unlike other languages.

I presume it is like 遅い, the readings of all the i-adjectives and verbs would be included in Jouyou kanji list for reference, then. And I shall check them out after dictionaries if necessary. All the confusion was because I didn't know the i-adjectives and verbs are also prescribed in the list.

Thanks again!

By the way all those words with okurigana (i-adjectives and verb) have kun reading only, don't they?
 

Toritoribe

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When dictionaries include different kanji's for the same reading, I infer that the quoted kanji must have all such alternative readings. For example, when I entered おそい it came up with 遅い, 晩い, 晏い of the same meaning. So I just supposed these three kanji's 遅, 晩, 晏 can also be read as おそ.
As for reading, your interpretation is correct. All those kanji can be read おそい. However, the meaning is not so.

2 (「晩い」とも書く)ある基準より、かなり時がたっている。時期が遅れている。「―・い朝食をとる」「もう―・いから寝よう」「今年は花が―・い」⇔早い。

As you can see above, 晩い is only applied to the meaning "late", and can't be used for "slow". The same goes to みる. 看る is only for "to treat/take care of", 試る is for "to try" or 診る is for "to examine/treat (patients)", as I wrote in another thread.

You can also see the explanations 「看る」とも書く for the definition #3, 「試る」とも書く for #5, or 「診る」とも書く for #7.


3 (「看る」とも書く)そのことに当たる。取り扱う。世話をする。「事務をみる」「子供のめんどうをみる」
5 (「試る」とも書く)こころみる。ためす。「切れ味をみる」
7 (「診る」とも書く)診断する。「脈をみる」


You also seem to say one can use any kanji given under the same headword in the dictionary
To supplement, I said about the first kanji listed in the entry in dictionaries like 聞く or 見る.

Roughly speaking, it's not wrong to use the kanji 聞く or 見る for all the meanings.
 

healer

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Is the 常用漢字 the final authority governing the choice of words and readings over the dictionaries?

I’m just thinking 晩 in 晩い is not read as ばん because it is not in the 常用漢字. However 観る can be used to the contrary.

Perhaps 常用漢字 was set up as a goal and people are still trending towards it.
 

Toritoribe

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常用漢字 is just a guideline how to use kanji mostly in official government documents, and not a strict rule or something, so there's no problem to write 映画を観る or 面倒を看る personally.

You can use 晩い, but it's rarely used. 観る is more commonly used than 晩い.
Joyo kanji is just a guideline, but to follow the guideline is a good choice when you don't know how common the reading of the kanji you are going to use is.
 

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