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許されて / よくなっていた / 来さえしたら

eeky

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Hi


1. 卒業前の半人前魔法使いは、学校の外で魔法を使うことを許されてはいない。

Anything with を followed by a passive verb still seems to confuse the hell out of me, even though I've been through it all several times in the past. If X is not allowed, can we say X許されてはいない? (I would think yes.) Can we say X許されてはいない? (Unsure.) Why in this case is it X許されてはいない? Is it because 卒業前の半人前魔法使い is deemed to be affected?


2. ハリーは、魔法界から切り離されたような気になり、ダドリーをからかうことさえどうでもよくなっていた。

This is apparently supposed to mean that taunting Dudley had lost its appeal. I don't get how どうでもよくなっていた means that. To me it looks to mean the exact opposite.


3. ホグワーツからひとつでも連絡来さえしたら、・・・

I get the idea of what this means, but grammatically what is 来? Is it the -masu stem of 来る? Is it part of a compound 連絡来? Something else?
 

Toritoribe

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1)
Grammatically, が can be used instead of を in that sentence. It seems like due to collocation to me, since が is more natural when the main verb is 許されない.

魔法使いは、魔法を使うことを許されてはいない。
魔法使いは、魔法を使うことが許されない。

は can be used as a contrastive marker in both cases above.

2)
どうでも
2 〔どんなでも〕
彼の意図はどうでもよい
I don't care what he is after.

成績なんかどうでもよい
I'm not interested in my grades.

結果はどうでもよい
The results do not matter.
どうでもの英語・英訳 - 和英辞書 - goo辞書

3)
The first one is correct. が is omitted there. (連絡来さえしたら)
 

eeky

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Thanks Toritoribe


1. a) Ignoring the considerations of what seems natural collocation, does changing を to が in that sentence alter the actual meaning in any way?

b) While we're here, I would like to ask another question about ~てはいない. I understand this pattern to be an emphatic or contrastive alteration of ~ていない, but I've never really grasped why it should be ~てはいない and not ~てはない. Is there any helpful or meaningful answer to this question, or is it "just the way it is"? Do you perceive ~て to be in any way the subject of いない?


2. Should I think of it as meaning that it came to be just as good whether Harry teased him or not, therefore there was no special enjoyment in teasing him?
 

Toritoribe

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1) a)
The meaning doesn't change.

b)
~ていない is a negative of ~ている. This structure expresses an aspect, as you know, thus, 許されていない has different meaning from 許されない. ~てない is just a colloquial form of ~ていない, i.e., 許されてはない can be used only as a colloquial form of 許されてはいない.

2)
Basically, yes. いい / よい doesn't have possitive meaning "good". It's more likely "acceptable/ not to care", since it's でもいい, though.
 

eeky

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1b) Thanks, I understand what you say, but probably I did not ask the question clearly enough. Although I read ~ていない purely as an inflection of the verb, I tend to read ~てはいない as somehow having ~て as the subject of the verb いない, which doesn't seem right since ~て is an abstract thing not an animate thing. I wonder why it is not ~てはない analogous to ~ではない perhaps. Is there any useful answer to this question?
 

Toritoribe

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~でない and ~ではない both are negative of ~だ, whereas ~てない is just the shortened form of ~ていない. This can't be an answer to your question?

I just find this so baffling...
The key is that 許されてはいない is passive and 許す takes an object and target(/indirect object). Two passive sentences are possible for this type of verbs; 1) the object is the subject and 2) the target is the subject. See the following example.

active sentence
彼に手紙を渡した。

passive sentences
1) 手紙が彼に渡された。
2) 彼は手紙を渡された。

"Wizards are not allowed to use magic" and "Using magic is not allowed for wizards" are the same in meaning also in English, aren't they? (As for active sentence, 魔法を使うことを許さない is different form 魔法を使うことが許さない.)
 
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eeky

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~でない and ~ではない both are negative of ~だ, whereas ~てない is just the shortened form of ~ていない. This can't be an answer to your question?
TBH, my question may be so off-beam as to make no sense at all to a native speaker. It is to do with the insertion of は in ~てはいない (or similar). While I understand that ~てはいない is a variant of ~ていない for emphasis etc., and while I can read it OK with that meaning, since I am most used to seeing は set off a topic, often the subject of the verb, this insertion of は seems to me in some ways to disrupt the grammatical structure.

Perhaps it would be better if I just asked another question. How would you describe the grammatical function of は in ~てはいない, and does it have any relation whatosever to the topic-marking は?


The key is that 許されてはいない is passive. Even in English, "Wizards are not allowed to use magic" and "Using magic is not allowed for wizards" are the same, aren't they?
Thanks, I'll have to think about that. But which of your English examples would you say corresponds to the を choice and which to が?
 

Morphling

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許されて / よくなっていた / 来さえしたら

You are over analyzing things a bit but if you insist.

は has many uses. One if the functions is attached to 連用形 of any verb or adjective for emphasis. It is not a topic marker in anyway.

で is the 連用形 form of だ. The は after で is purely for emphasis from a grammatical point of view.
 

Toritoribe

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I revised my post. Isn't it clearer than the previous one?

Wizards are not allowed to use magic. = 魔法使いは魔法を使うことを許されていない
Using magic is not allowed for wizards. = 魔法使いは魔法を使うことが許されていない
(In the latter sentence, に is hidden behind は.)



3 叙述の内容、またはその一部分を強調して明示する意を表す。「喜ばずに―いられない」「やがてわかって―くれるだろう」
は[係助]の意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書


Thus, は doesn't apply only to a noun. It can emphasize the content of a description. (It might be closer to contrastive usage.)

泣いてはドジョウを困らせた。
転んでは起き、転んでは起きしながら走った。
叱りはするけど殴りはしない。(emphasized form of 叱るけど殴らない)
 
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eeky

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Wizards are not allowed to use magic. = 魔法使いは魔法を使うことを許されていない
Using magic is not allowed for wizards. = 魔法使いは魔法を使うことが許されていない
(In the latter sentence, に is hidden behind は.)
Could we name the thing/person that is denying permission in either/both of these using に? For example, 魔法使いは魔法をダンブルドア先生に使うことを/が許されていない.


Thus, は doesn't apply only to a noun. It can emphasize the content of a description. (It might be closer to contrastive usage.)
Is this は etymologically the same word as the topic marker?
 

Toritoribe

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In the sentence 魔法使いは魔法をダンブルドア先生に使うことを/が許されていない, ダンブルドア先生 is interpreted as the target wizards use magic against, not the person who is denying permission. The order of the words should be 魔法使いは、魔法を使うことをダンブルドア先生に / から許されていない. (The verb 禁じられている would be more common for this case, I suppose.)


The etymology is the same. (Or rather, they are considered the same particle. Only the usage/meaning is different.)
 

eeky

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Thanks for your patience with this Toritoribe. I understand what you say about the word order. I have a couple more questions, if I may.

i) Is 魔法使いは、魔法を使うことダンブルドア先生に / から許されていない also grammatical?

ii) Is it possible for a passive verb to have both an object marked with を and a subject marked with が?
 

Toritoribe

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i)
Yes, it's grammatically correct. 禁じられている is more common, as I wrote, though.

ii)
Yes. Although inanimate things can be hardly the subject, as you know.
 

Toritoribe

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active
彼が彼女に手紙を渡した。
passive
彼女が / は彼から手紙を渡された。

active
彼が海に石を投げた。
passive
海が / は彼から石を投げられた。
(This sentence sounds odd.)
 

eeky

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passive
彼女が / は彼から手紙を渡された。
Oh, OK, I feel somewhat familiar with this pattern using は, but I wasn't clear that you could also use が.

Can を be replaced by が (with the same meaning) in the following case too?

「その家族は君がここに来てること知ってるの?」ハリーは興味をそそられた。
 

Toritoribe

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No, since that's 持主受身 "possessor's passive". The active sentence of it is 「その家族が君がここに来てること知ってるかどうか (whether the family knows you are here or not)」ハリー興味をそそった. See the following more easy-to-understand example.

active
泥棒が私の財布を盗んだ。
passive 1
私は / が泥棒に財布を盗まれた。
passive 2
私の財布が泥棒に盗まれた。

In the passive 2 above, you can't say 私が財布が泥棒に盗まれた. (私は財布が泥棒に盗まれた would be barely acceptable only when は is a contrastive marker (e.g. 私は財布が盗まれたが、彼は何も盗られなかった), but 私は財布を盗まれたが is far more natural even for this case.) Similarly, when 興味がそそられた is used, the particle after ハリー should be の.
 

eeky

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Thanks for your help. I will have to study this some more.
 
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