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触る intransitive? に or を for the objects

healer

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I'm very surprised that 触る is an intransitive verb according to the two dictionaries that I use.
As far as I'm aware 触る takes an object.
I've looked up sentences that has 触る in them. Either the particle に or を is used for the objects.
Exmples:
彼にそれを触らせるな。
髪の毛にさわった。
彼女はだれかがせなか背中をさわるのをかん感じた。
I would like to know how to determine whether
に or を is used for an object.
 

Toritoribe

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This is a coincidence, but an example page I quoted from 新明解国語辞典 in your previous thread had the entry さわる, and the dictionary explained about the difference between ~に触る and ~を触る there.

文法
(= the definition 1)は、「ペンキを塗ったばかりの壁に触ってしまった」「ポケットに手を入れると指先に触るものがあった」などと(必ずしも)意図的でない行為である場合には多く「…に触る」となるが、「感触を確かめようとバラの花びらを触る」などと意図的な行為として行う場合には「…を触る」の形を用いる傾向がある。

I.e., ~に触る is mostly used for "to touch something unintentionally", while ~を触る tends to be used for "to touch something intentionally". Actually, を sometimes has this "intentionally" or "for a purpose" nuance with some intransitive verbs (e.g. "南極海を泳ぐ vs. 南極海で泳ぐ", "百名山を登る vs. 百名山に登る").
 

healer

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Now I've got it. The main difference is whether it is intentional or not. Then does it purely depend on how the speaker feels so it can be variable or are they fixed with situations?
For example:
Can I simply change the above example sentences to the following?
彼にそれに触らせるな。 intentional -> unintentional を -> に
髪の毛をさわった。 unintentional -> intentional に -> を
彼女はだれかが背中にさわるのを感じた。 intentional -> unintentional を -> に

Whether the motion verbs take particle を or に or で, does it depend on the verb used or the object the verb takes? I have learnt some motion verbs (道を歩く, 空を飛ぶ, 階段を登る, 階段を降りる, 公園を走る, 橋を渡る, 道を通る, 公園を散歩する) take を, so I have tried to memorize all these verbs take the particle を. But then 登る takes を for 階段 and に for a mountain. So it seems to depend on the places too and I had supposed the particle を is for small area such as 階段を登る. Now I've just been told of 百名山を登る.

I can't figure out how climbing a mountain can be an intentional act or not. How can one do it by accident? It has to be intentional. I had also guessed that に is for non-motion verbs such as 住む and 座る. But then this contradicts 百名山に登る. It looks like I can't work out a reliable pattern for the choice of these particles and I just have to memorize the combinations. The dictionaries I use read 南極海 as なんきょうくかい. Google Translate reads なんきょうくうみ. I suppose the former should be the right one, shouldn't it?
 

Toritoribe

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As I wrote above, the dictionary explained about the difference between ~に触る and ~を触る. They, or I never said that's the difference between に and を in general.

They explained "~に触る is mostly used for..., while ~を触る tends to be used for...", i.e., the distinction is not so strict. Thus, it's possible to say 意識的に(= intentionally)髪の毛に触った or 無意識に(= unintentionally)髪の毛を触った.

As I explained previously in your another thread, the verbs you listed are mostly for moving from a place to another place, and を indicates location of moving. It has nothing to do with the width or length of the area, so there is no problem with ニューヨークからロサンジェルスまでアメリカを歩く or リンドバーグは飛行機で大西洋を飛んだ.

As you must have already learned, に indicates the destination. Think about the difference between 階段を上る and 二階に上る, or 橋を渡る and 川の向こう側に渡る. This difference is also applied to 山を登る vs. 山に登る. 山 is the location of moving and the destination, respectively. However, this difference is not always valid. For instance, my examples 南極海を泳ぐ and 百名山を登る are book titles. The writer aimed to climb 100 famous mountains in Japan, so を indicates the purpose, not the location of moving in this case. Thus, the context also affects the meaning.

Here's a thread about ~に登る vs. ~を登る. I mentioned 崖に登る vs. 崖を登る or 屋根に上るvs. 屋根を上る there. I believe it would be useful for your understanding.

Incidentally, 座る is an action, not "non-motion". It's just 座っている is a state. 座る refers to the whole action of sitting, i.e., action from the state of standing to the state of sitting. に indicates a kind of destination here, so it's close to 床に倒れる or 地面に落ちる. These verbs express "action from the previous state to the state of fallen", and 倒れている and 落ちている are both a state.

The dictionaries I use read 南極海 as なんきょうくかい. Google Translate reads なんきょうくうみ. I suppose the former should be the right one, shouldn't it?
なんきょくかい is correct (う is unnecessary, by the way). I can't think of any example of location names "~うみ".
 

healer

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As I wrote above, the dictionary explained about the difference between ~に触る and ~を触る. They, or I never said that's the difference between に and を in general.
Sorry I got carried away and presumptuously extrapolate that.

Now I've got it. The main difference is whether it is intentional or not. Then does it purely depend on how the speaker feels so it can be variable or are they fixed with situations?
For example:
Can I simply change the above example sentences to the following?
彼にそれに触らせるな。 intentional -> unintentional を -> に
髪の毛をさわった。 unintentional -> intentional に -> を
彼女はだれかが背中にさわるのを感じた。 intentional -> unintentional を -> に
Can you please confirm the above?

the verbs you listed are mostly for moving from a place to another place, and を indicates location of moving
What is the difference in meaning between your highlighted text?
To me they are the same because they all move from one place to another. That’s where I failed to accurately define it. Please reword it or elaborate a bit more. Obviously moving in a small area as you pointed out was wrong.
 

Toritoribe

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Can you please confirm the above?
I think I already answered it. Isn't this enough?

They explained "~に触る is mostly used for..., while ~を触る tends to be used for...", i.e., the distinction is not so strict. Thus, it's possible to say 意識的に(= intentionally)髪の毛に触った or 無意識に(= unintentionally)髪の毛を触った.

What is the difference in meaning between your highlighted text?
To me they are the same because they all move from one place to another. That’s where I failed to accurately define it. Please reword it or elaborate a bit more
I emphasized the difference between を and に in function for those verbs.

As you must have already learned, に indicates the destination. Think about the difference between 階段を上る and 二階に上る, or 橋を渡る and 川の向こう側に渡る.
 

healer

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I think I already answered it. Isn't this enough?
I was simply expecting a yes or no answer but I didn’t get it. As far as I understand from what you’ve quoted from the dictionary に触るfor unintentional touch whereas を触るfor intentional touch. So I changed the particle にand をin my example sentences to ask for your confirmation in order to be sure of my understanding. I did gather that was not absolute and it has just been the tendency. Probably that was why you didn’t give me a clear-cut answer.

I emphasized the difference between を and に in function for those verbs.
I do realise that that にand をare different with the movement verbs where にhas the nuance of reaching the destination whereas をhas the nuance of moving along the place mentioned. Having said that I now understand what your highlighted texts mean.

I do have some question with the examples of climbing the mountain and climbing the ladder though. It says on the other thread that 山に登る has the nuance of getting to the top. I suppose it would be the same for the ladder and the roof, or even the slope. What if one wants to say going up but not all the way?

山に行く or 山へ行くmean getting to and going to the foot of the mountain only, don’t they?
 

Toritoribe

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I was simply expecting a yes or no answer but I didn’t get it. As far as I understand from what you’ve quoted from the dictionary に触るfor unintentional touch whereas を触るfor intentional touch. So I changed the particle にand をin my example sentences to ask for your confirmation in order to be sure of my understanding. I did gather that was not absolute and it has just been the tendency. Probably that was why you didn’t give me a clear-cut answer.
Yes for "に and を are interchangeable", and no for your interpretation "intentional -> unintentional を -> に" or "unintentional -> intentional に -> を". Isn't this the same as;

"it's possible to say

意識的に(= intentionally)髪の毛触った
or
無意識に(= unintentionally)髪の毛触った"


?


There was a poet 斎藤茂吉, one of the most famous modern waka(Japanese poem) poet. His son 北杜夫 was also a famous novelist and essayist. Kita wrote an episode with his father in his essay.
When Kita was a collage student, he went for a walk with Mokichi. Mokichi suddenly stopped in a forest, and started to make a poem. Mokichi sat on a stump of a tree, and was thinking about which particle he should use in the poem, に or へ, with muttering. Kita silently left there, walked around in the forest nearly for an hour, and then returned to the father's place. Mokichi sat on the same place in the same pose, and was still thinking about which particle he should used, に or へ, with muttering...

If you just want to say "to touch something", you can use both ~に触る and ~を触る. What you want to say can be conveyed correctly in either particle since there is no significant difference in meaning between them. However, the difference can be huge for some people in some situation. The author of the book 日本百名山登る, which is mentioned in the thread linked above, intentionally chose the particle を. It is necessary to be を for him. (を indicates the purpose, not the location of moving, needless to say.)

神は細部に宿り給う
God is in the details.

I do have some question with the examples of climbing the mountain and climbing the ladder though. It says on the other thread that 山に登る has the nuance of getting to the top. I suppose it would be the same for the ladder and the roof, or even the slope.
The point is that 山 can refer to both the top of a mountain and the whole mountain, therefore 山に登る and 山を登る are both possible. 階段に登る is odd since "ladder" is not the destination when you climb a ladder. The same goes to slope or roof (roof is the destination, and not the location of moving, except a special case like I mentioned in the thread I linked).

What if one wants to say going up but not all the way?
Just 階段を登る or 坂を登る. Even if the final destination is the fifth station of a mountain, 山に登る is valid.

山に行く or 山へ行くmean getting to and going to the foot of the mountain only, don’t they?
No. both mean "to go to climb a mountain". Think about sentences like 映画館に行く, レストランに行く or デパートに行く. You usually go to a movie theater to watch a movie, and not just go to the entrance of it, don't you? In the same sense, if a mountaineer says 来年はエベレストに行く, it means he/she is going to climb Mt. Everest next year.
 

healer

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no for your interpretation "intentional -> unintentional を -> に" or "unintentional -> intentional に -> を"
I apologize that I've misread it. So に for intentional and を for unintentional as far as 触る is concerned.

If you just want to say "to touch something", you can use both ~に触る and ~を触る.
Then which one would you usually say? How to determine the preference?

階段に登る is odd since "ladder" is not the destination when you climb a ladder.
I gather we should say 階段を登る or 坂を登る or はしごを登る and に never comes in for smaller space to cover.

It is necessary to be を for him. (を indicates the purpose, not the location of moving, needless to say.)
So 山に登る should be said when referring to climbing mountain whereas 山を登る has no nuance of action. A bit tricky to take this one in. I simply echo your statement so that you can verify my thinking. I probably need some time for it to sink in.

来年はエベレストに行く
Are the first one and the second one below the same meaning in all aspects, i.e. including nuance and so forth? I suppose the third one is just a statement in general without specifically referring to climbing. I'm somewhat struggling to describe it. As you said it is for stating a purpose so the chance for us saying を登る with mountains is not as often.
来年はエベレストに行く
来年はエベレストに登る
来年はエベレストを登る
 

Toritoribe

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I apologize that I've misread it. So に for intentional and を for unintentional as far as 触る is concerned.
No, The tendency is に for unintentional and を for intentional, as the dictionary or I explained.

Then which one would you usually say? How to determine the preference?
に would be more common, but を is not wrong. Also, there is a tendency as already explained, but you can think you can use both, unless you are not like Mokichi.

I gather we should say 階段を登る or 坂を登る or はしごを登る and に never comes in for smaller space to cover.
The size doesn't matter, as I already pointed out. You can't say ジャックは天まで続くはしご登りました even if the ladder reaches the heaven since はしご is not his destination. 山 is just a tricky example.

So 山に登る should be said when referring to climbing mountain whereas 山を登る has no nuance of action. A bit tricky to take this one in. I simply echo your statement so that you can verify my thinking. I probably need some time for it to sink in.
山に登る is more common for "to climb a mountain". 山を登る can have different nuances; 1) を indicates the location of moving (e.g. 山を登っているとき、突然雨が 降ってきました。 in Glenn-san's post in the thread linked above), or 2) を is for a purpose (e.g. 日本百名山を登る). Specific mountain names (proper nouns) are often used for the meaning #2, since "purpose" is often concrete. There is no grammatical problem to use に for both cases, as I wrote in my previous post, though.

Are the first one and the second one below the same meaning in all aspects, i.e. including nuance and so forth? I suppose the third one is just a statement in general without specifically referring to climbing. I'm somewhat struggling to describe it. As you said it is for stating a purpose so the chance for us saying を登る with mountains is not as often.
来年はエベレストに行く
来年はエベレストに登る
来年はエベレストを登る
The first one usually means the same meaning as the second one. Of course there are cases where the subject only goes there and don't climb the mountain depending on the context, though. The third one strongly expresses the speaker's will "to climb Mt. Everest " (を for a purpose).
 

healer

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No, The tendency is に for unintentional and を for intentional, as the dictionary or I explained.
That was what I had said in the first place but you said I was wrong. See below.
に触るfor unintentional touch whereas を触るfor intentional touch
Though you said the following later. I think you meant nothing need to be strictly adhered to.
it's possible to say

意識的に(= intentionally)髪の毛触った
or
無意識に(= unintentionally)髪の毛触った"

降ってきました
What does it mean when one verb in ~てform followed with 来る?
 

bentenmusume

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That was what I had said in the first place but you said I was wrong. See below.
What Toritoribe-san is saying (and I think he made this fairly clear) is that the _overall tendency_ is に for unintentional and を for intentional, but that this is not a 100% etched-in-stone rule, and that it is _possible_ to use them in the reverse, if it were explicitly spelled out like in the second group of example sentences.

What does it mean when one verb in ~てform followed with 来る?
In this instance, it means that it's begun to rain. ~ていく and ~てくる with the directional verbs いく and くる serving as auxiliary verbs is a very common and wide-ranging grammatical structure. It's too involved to type a huge explanation here, but a quick internet search should turn up multiple reference pages explaining this particular structure.
 

Toritoribe

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Now I'm wondering again where the problem is, my explanation or your reading literacy...
 
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