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良いリンスは髪の毛の絡みを取り除いてくれます。

healer

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The translation is as follows.
A good conditioner will take the tangles out of your hair.

Even though the translation refers to “your hair” as a general idea, is it possible that it literally refers to “our hair” because the sentence ends with くれる which means someone doing us or me a favour?
 

Toritoribe

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Yes, the interpretation "our hair" is possible, but second or third person can be the recipient of the favor in ~てくれる when the sentence is written from the viewpoint of them.
e.g.
親御さんは必ずあなたを助けてくれます。
the recipient of the favor: あなた

彼女は彼が来てくれたことを喜んだ。
the recipient of the favor: 彼女
 

healer

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Toritoribe-san,
Having got your answer I'm quite confused.
I reviewed the texbook again. All the example sentences of 〜てくれる are explicitly translated to be for us or for me.

I looked up JLPT N4 Grammar: てくれる (te kureru) - Explanation and examples
I can see the same pattern except 彼が、何が起こったのかを、みんなに話してくれた。 in that I believe みんな includes the speaker.

All the time I thought if there is no explicit reference to the benefit of the speaker in a 〜てくれる sentence there is hidden or potential intention of being for the sake of the speaker or for the group the speaker is in. In other words we read that into it. Am I completely wrong?

I would think 親御さんは必ずあなたを助けてくれます means "Someone else's parents will always help you by doing me/us a favour." Of course the parents will also be doing a favour to "you" at the same time. Can I interpret the same on 彼女は彼が来てくれたことを喜んだ saying "She was pleased that he came." but also somehow it also implies also doing the speaker a favour. Failing that I'm not too sure how to justify using 〜てくれる instead of 〜てくれる. I understand that the 〜てくれる means to do someone else a favour.

I also try to read doing us/me a favour into the sentences on ~てくれる - Example sentences - JLPT N4 grammar. Is the notion far-fetched?

By the way how would you translate the two example sentences you gave? Would you translate them in such way that you receive a favour and she receive a favour respectively?

I thank you for your kind attention.
 

bentenmusume

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I feel like either Toritoribeさん or I have explained this point before (perhaps I'm wrong), but the key distinction with giving and receiving verbs is in-group vs. out-group. With くれる, the direction of the giving is from out-group to in-group. The most common form that this takes is some other party to "me" or "us", but that is not necessarily the only form this takes—this is the subtle nuance that Toritoribeさん is trying to explain here.

The sentence 親御さんは必ずあなたを助けてくれます could be in a book meant to be read by children or spoken by a counselor to a child. In this case, the author/speaker is putting themselves in the perspective of the reader/listener (I don't believe this is such a foreign concept; it can happen in English as well, though in this case it won't manifest itself in the language since English giving/receiving verbs have no directionality). Therefore, the recipient of the benefit is not the speaker (the author/teacher) but rather あなた (the child being spoken to).

The same with 「彼女は彼が来てくれたことを喜んだ」. Imagine this sentence being written in a novel or something. It is written from the perspective of 彼女, so it would be nonsensical to interpret it as "She rejoiced that he did me (the author?) the favor of coming."

So yes, absent context and in most cases, it is fine to interpret the recipient of the benefit as "me" or "us", but just understand that there can be exceptions where the "in-group" can shift depending on the perspective of the sentence.
 

healer

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I thought that was what I was trying to say. Whoever receiving the benefit must be in the same group of the speaker while using ~てくれる. So it sounds like the favour is done for both the speaker and the subject of the sentence. I was trying to elicit an echo to confirm my understanding. Perhaps a favour is too strong a word to use in referring to the speaker where the subject is somebody other than the speaker. That could be where I was wrong then.
 

bentenmusume

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I thought that was what I was trying to say. Whoever receiving the benefit must be in the same group of the speaker while using ~てくれる.
Your earlier post said this:

Can I interpret the same on 彼女は彼が来てくれたことを喜んだ saying "She was pleased that he came." but also somehow it also implies also doing the speaker a favour.
What Toritoribeさん was saying (and I was trying to clarify) was that in cases where the speaker/author is speaking/writing from the perspective of another (e.g. 彼女 in this sentence), there is no implication that the speaker/author (or anyone other than 彼女) is receiving any sort of benefit from the action described.

So it sounds like the favour is done for both the speaker and the subject of the sentence. I was trying to elicit an echo to confirm my understanding. Perhaps a favour is too strong a word to use in referring to the speaker where the subject is somebody other than the speaker. That could be where I was wrong then.
I'm actually glad you brought this up because it's a point worth elaborating on. Yes, while "doing a favor" or "receiving a benefit" is the underlying nuance here, translating ~てくれる as "doing the favor of..." every time is a bit excessive and overemphasizes the nuance a bit. The most idiomatic translation of 来てくれてありがとう is "Thank you for coming." not "Thank you for doing me the favor of coming", which is overkill. If you wanted to express "Kenji taught me Japanese." it would be ケンジが日本語を教えてくれた, even though you wouldn't specifically say "favor" in English.

Oftentimes, giving/receiving verbs and constructions help to clarify relations and directionality in Japanese sentences, which is often very important in understanding/conveying meaning, especially because Japanese is a highly context-sensitive language that often omits subjects, etc.
 

healer

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Thanks for your patience and kind help.

I understand that ~てくれる has the nuance of someone doing a favour for us or for me. When we refer that as a nuance I also understand that such feeling is not necessarily translated to another language, not even saying “for us” or “for me”.

So is my understanding correct for having the subject other than the speaker in a ~てくれる sentence simply being in the same group as the speaker while the speaker does not necessarily receive the benefit or favour?
 

bentenmusume

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I mean, if you want to think of the examples above as 彼女 being in the same "group" as the author or the child being in the same "group" as the speaker, you can, but I'm not sure why it's so hard to comprehend it in the terms that Toritoribeさん and I explained, i.e. the speaker/author speaking/writing from the perspective of another.
 

Toritoribe

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What you have learned so far is expressions only from the speaker's view point, which are used in conversations, diary or like that. For instance, you would already learn that you can't use ~たい form for other people since you can't know their feelings/emotions. That's why you need to attach expressions like ~そうだ/ようだ/みたいだ/らしい to ~たい form. However, there is no problem to use, for instance 彼は日本に行きたかった in the narrative part of a novel, as jt_san mentioned. This is because the author writes from omniscient point of view. They know any feelings/emotions of all their characters.

It's the same for my examples. The writer wrote 彼女は彼が来てくれたことを喜んだ from her viewpoint. The writer "I" doesn't exist in this sentence. It's like she was thinking/saying 私は彼が来てくれたことを喜んだ. This is exactly why the given translation is "your hair". The writer doesn't exist in that explanation. This "you" is the readers or people in general.
 

healer

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the speaker/author speaking/writing from the perspective of another.
I just try to have some theory or rules formed in my mind to help me memorise the usage. What you’ve said here is quite new to me. I haven’t come across such idea in any teaching material I used. Thanks for enlightening me.

from her viewpoint. The writer "I" doesn't exist in this sentence. It's like she was thinking/saying
Thanks Toritoribe-san for giving this idea and explanation as well.
 
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