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時 in the following sentence

thesuker

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So, I've been told by a native Japanese that the following sentence sounds weird:

  • LA VITA E'BELLAを見る時、感動しました。
In her own words, 'because watching that video is a one time thing and not your habit, so we usually use the past tense.'

But in my book, it says that in a A時、B sentence, we use the present short form when A happens after or at the time of B. And I want to say that I got emotional when I watched that film (at the same time, not after the film). So, could anybody explain to me in more detail whether the sentence is correct or not, and why?

PS: to be honest, when I think about it, the sentence does sound a little bit weird, I too would understand 見る時 as a habit in that sentence :S
 

butarox

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I think your friend (and your hunch) is correct. It's more common that BIII (present short form) + toki indicates either a habit or a usual occurrence (e.g. "when/whenever I..." as in "Gohan wo taberu toki, o-hashi wo tsukaimasu.") or a point in time. The Bta form + toki is a point in time (e.g. "when"), but it doesn't necessarily indicate an order of events ("after" or "first A, then B").

As a matter of fact, I would go so far as to say that Bta + toki...kandou shimashita in this case ([eiga] wo mita toki kandou shimashita) implies that you were emotional (impressed, moved, etc.) at the time that you saw the movie, but NOW you don't really feel the same connection. "When I saw the movie, I felt emotional (but not really now)." This is because "toki" implies a point in time. (this is my own take...I can see others disagreeing here).

If it were me, I'd use one of the following constructions to indicate how I feel about a movie (or whatever) when I still feel the same way:

[eiga] wo mite, kandou shimashita (I saw the movie and became emotional)
[eiga] wo miru tabi, kandou shimasu (Every time I see the movie I get emotional...that's if you watch the movie more than once...)

...there are probably five (or five hundred) other ways that you could communicate the same thing.. (e.g. use kandouteki as an adjective to describe the movie, tell your listener that they will definitely be impressed by the movie "...kandou shimasu yo," "namida ga deru," etc.)
 

thesuker

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Thanks for the answer. The thing is, my book gives the following example of A時、B using present - past that is (I think) similar to mine: 出かける時、ドアに鍵をかけました。According to the textbook, A is in present because it happens at the time B happens, independent of B's tense. And in my sentence, 映画を見る時、感動した, I want to express the same, I got emotional at the time I watched the movie. But then, my friend, native, says that wouldn't sound very natural because it sounds like watching the movie is a habit. :S
 

Toritoribe

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Is there any explanation about the difference between "A happens after B" and "A happens at the time of B" in your textbook? Those two meanings are not applied for all types of verbs. 見る expresses a moment, so your sentence means the former one "A happens after B", i.e., "I got emotional before I watched that film" therefore it sounds odd. Or, it's interpreted as a past habit, as your friend suggested.
Similarly, 出かける時、ドアに鍵をかけました。 is "B -> A" or a past habit. Actually, 出かける and ドアに鍵をかける are not the same time. You ドアに鍵をかける and then 出かける. 出かける means "to leave house" not just "to go outside of the house", therefore it can be rephrased as ドアに鍵をかけて、出かけました。 You can't say ドアから家の外に出る時、ドアに鍵をかけました。 because you can't go out after you locked the door.
LA VITA E'BELLAを見ている時、感動しました。 is valid since 見ている is a period of time and 感動しました happened during it, but LA VITA E'BELLAを見た時、感動しました。 or LA VITA E'BELLAを見て、感動しました。 is more natural, as butarox-san wrote.
 

thesuker

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I'll write down what the book says:

The present tense in A. If, at the time the main event B takes place, A is current or is still 'in the future,' use the present tense in A.
チベットに行く時、ビサをとります。​
Note that as long as event A occurs after event B, the clause A (行く) gets the present tense irrespective of the tense in clause B (とります or とりました) In the example below, the whole sequence of events has been shifted to the past: at the time you applied for the visa, the departure was yet to be realized. The temporal order between the two events is exactly the same as in the example above, hence the present tense of 行く. Note especially that we use the present tense in A, even if the two events took place in the past.
チベットに行く時、ビサをとりました。​
Clause A also gets the present tense, when the state of A holds when the event B takes place.
寂しい時、友だちに電話します。​

The past tense in A
. If, at the time of the main event B, A is 'already in the past', use the past tense in A. Note that we use the past tense even when the two events are yet to take place; it is the order of the two that matters. In the example below, you will have already arrived in chine at the time you buy tea.
中国に行った時、ウーロン茶を買います。​
 

Toritoribe

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But in my book, it says that in a A時、B sentence, we use the present short form when A happens after or at the time of B.
According to the textbook, A is in present because it happens at the time B happens, independent of B's tense.
Where did you get "A happens ... at the time of B / A is in present because it happens at the time B happens" from?
 

Toritoribe

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I've noticed now. "Visa" is ビ, not ビサ.

"Current" is not the same as "happens". It means "started in the past and still continues / be in the state", as I already explained (見ている vs 見る). You need to pay attention to the difference among the types of verbs.

1)
A is state verbs / the -te iru form of action verbs in AときB ("current" in your textbook).
B happens/occurs/is done during A. When describing a past event or habit, i.e., B is past, A also can be past without changing the meaning.
e.g.
日本にいるとき、寿司を食べました。(=日本にいたとき、寿司を食べました。)
散歩しているとき、携帯が鳴りました。(=散歩していたとき、携帯が鳴りました。)

2)
A is the dictionary form of action verbs in AときB.
A happens/occurs/is done after B. A can't be replaced with the past form in these cases since the meaning changes to "B is done after A".
e.g.
散歩するとき、着替えます。(=散歩する前(に)、着替えます。 / 着替えた後(で)、散歩します。 / 着替えて(から)、散歩します。)
映画を見るとき、眼鏡をかけました。(=映画を見る前(に)、眼鏡をかけました。 / 眼鏡をかけた後(で)、映画を見ました。 / 眼鏡をかけて(から)、映画を見ました。 )

3)
Some verbs can represent two different phases of the action. For instance, (家に)帰るとき can refer to both "before starting the action returning home" and "during the action returning home(from the point of beginning to return to the point of finishing returning)".
e.g.
家に帰るとき、音楽を聴いていました。(家に帰り始める前、音楽を聴いていました。 or 家に着くまでの間、音楽を聴いていました。)
食べるとき also can refer to two phases; "before eating" and "during eating", so your question about 昼ご飯を食べる時、お酒を飲みます in your previous thread is understandable since the two interpretations, 食べる前 and 食べているとき, are both possible, as I pointed out in this post.

As you can see, it's not that simple such like "the present form + とき always means before or at the same time " or "the past form + とき always means after " automatically.
 

thesuker

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どうもありがとう。とりとりべさんのお陰で分かった。お世話になりました。
 
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