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文法について質問

Ahwii

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I have a few sentences that, while I most of the time understand the basic meaning, fail to grasp the grammatical structure, and somehow can't seem to get the translations right. This is no homework, but studying I do on my own, and so I don't have any teacher to correct me. I would appreciate it greatly if anyone could help me.

1) Found on train in Japan:
この席を必要をされているお客様がいます。
So this is about those seats being reserved for passengers with special needs. But how does 必要がされている work as a grammatic structure? And to me it seems like がいます would refer to the guests/passengers, but surely they mean the seats. Then how does the を work? I'm truly lost at this one...

2) a) その後、お休みはいかがですか。
b)ありがとう。よくなりました。あなたにも心配させ ってしまって、ごめんなさい。
Is a) trying to politely express his concern for b) overworking himself? I have tried to translate this to English, but I'm not really sure how to express the first sentence.

3) 女の人に図書館までの道を聞かれました。
Who doesn't know the way and who's telling who?

4) ちょっとのことでけんかして、妻に出ていかれてしまい ました。
Am I or my wife leaving?

Any help, or even just ideas would be very helpful!
 

Angel Valis

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3.
女の人に図書館までの道を聞かれました。
"A woman asked me (how to get to) the library"

4.
ちょっとのことでけんかして、妻に出ていかれてしまいました。
"We fought over a trivial thing and my wife left me"

You have passive verbs here and when you have a passive verb, the person followed by に is the actor, or the one doing the action that affects the speaker.
 

Ahwii

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Thank you!
I've grasped most things about passive verbs, but the different forms (受身、使役、使役受身) confuse me sometimes...
 

tokkyo

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1) Found on train in Japan:
この席を必要をされているお客様がいます。
So this is about those seats being reserved for passengers with special needs. But how does 必要がされている work as a grammatic structure? And to me it seems like がいます would refer to the guests/passengers, but surely they mean the seats. Then how does the を work? I'm truly lost at this one...

います will never be referring to 席, as います refers to animate things, such as people.

を必要されている is the honorary passive of を必要している. Often in Japanese people use the passive to be polite. For example:
先生、どこに行きますか? -> 先生、どちらに行かれますか? -> 先生、どちらにいらっしゃいますか?
All of these translate to "Teacher, where are you going?" (do NOT translate 行かれます as the passive, it's just showing respect not a grammatical function). And as you can see, the honorary passive is between just the normal -masu form and the more formal いらっしゃいます, making it nice for sounding polite but not too stiff.


b)ありがとう。よくなりました。あなたにも心配させってしまって、ごめんなさい。
Is a) trying to politely express his concern for b) overworking himself? I have tried to translate this to English, but I'm not really sure how to express the first sentence.

*あなたにも心配させてしまって、ごめんなさい
"Sorry for worrying you" or "Sorry for making you worry"
させる is the causative of する, so it would mean "to make" or "to let"
心配する to worry -> 心配させる to make (someone) worry

By the way, for 妻に出ていかれてしまいました, this is often called 迷惑受身 or the "suffering passive"
It's a passive construction to show something negative is happening.

For example, こよなく可愛がっていた犬に死なれた
How Angel Valis translated the sentence with 妻 is fine, but if you tried to translate 犬に死なれた in the same way as a passive sentence it would come out sounding very funny (ie, please do not translate it as "I was died on by my dog"). Instead it means something more along the lines of "My dog up and died on me"
It's common to hear 雨に降られた as well, which is also suffering passive
 

masaegu

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を必要されている is the honorary passive of を必要している. Often in Japanese people use the passive to be polite. For example:
Seriously, you have been labeling way too many verb phrases as "passive" on here lately, dude.

必要とされている is in the honorific active voice. Without the honorific, it is 必要としている.

To OP and the guys who did not notice and point it out, the correct phrase is 必要とされている. It is と, not を as OP said or 必要されている as tokkyo said. .
 

tokkyo

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Masaegu, chill out. These are simply what these grammatical terms are called in English (in case you missed the part where I said "don't actually translate it as passive"). Regardless of whether it's the active or passive voice, the construction is still called the honorific passive, because strictly speaking されている is grammatically the passive of している, despite what it really means. I didn't make this stuff up, it's merely how these constructions are referred to.
 

Ahwii

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Thanks a lot for your answers, though I'm not sure I've actually understood what it was I asked for.

While I understand the grammatic parts of every bit of the first sentence, I really can't understand the grammatic rules that allows a sentence to be something like: These seats, guests with special needs exists. Where いますrefers to the passengers, but there is no verb for 席 and thus no impliance of these seats existing, but rather that the passengers with special needs exist. I know it's correct, it was on the train in Japan, but I'm just curious how it works.

Toritoribe: Yes, it should be. I'm sorry, I've copied it wrong from my text book. Does いかがですか then mean something like - have you had enough?
And yes, it's not for reserved seats. It's for disabled, pregnants, women with children etc.
 

Angel Valis

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Deja-vu? Ah, no, I've actually seen "passive vs honorific" thing previously.
Just looking to see how well I understand this story. | Japan Forum

Haha...that's one of my threads :p

Thanks a lot for your answers, though I'm not sure I've actually understood what it was I asked for.
While I understand the grammatic parts of every bit of the first sentence, I really can't understand the grammatic rules that allows a sentence to be something like: These seats, guests with special needs exists. Where いますrefers to the passengers, but there is no verb for 席 and thus no impliance of these seats existing, but rather that the passengers with special needs exist. I know it's correct, it was on the train in Japan, but I'm just curious how it works.

この席を必要とされているお客様がいます。
Okay, I'm gonna take a shot at this, I hope if I'm wrong that someone will correct me quickly.

この席 is connected to されている here by を. 必要と, according to looking at some example sentences on “必要と”の検索結果(2855 件):英辞郎 on the WEB:スペースアルク sort of means "when necessary."

この席を必要とされている is sort of difficult to translate nicely into English but is along the lines of (and I know this is a lousy translation), "seats used when necessary."

The whole of この席を必要とされている modifies お客様.

Therefore, you end up with a sentence with a general meaning of, "Guests who need them, use these seats." But the focus is on talking about guests rather than the seats themselves. A better English translation, that doesn't take the original Japanese construction into consideration would be, "These seats are for guests that need them."

Does いかがですか then mean something like - have you had enough?

いかが means "how", so 「お体はいかがですか」means, "how are you (doing)?" Or literally, "how is your body?"
 

Toritoribe

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Thanks a lot for your answers, though I'm not sure I've actually understood what it was I asked for.

While I understand the grammatic parts of every bit of the first sentence, I really can't understand the grammatic rules that allows a sentence to be something like: These seats, guests with special needs exists. Where いますrefers to the passengers, but there is no verb for 席 and thus no impliance of these seats existing, but rather that the passengers with special needs exist. I know it's correct, it was on the train in Japan, but I'm just curious how it works.
That sentence is an explanation for those who need the seats, not for the seats themselves.

There are people who need these seats. (So please give up your seat to them, if they are standing up.)
 
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