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心を支えっていうかさ / みろ / わからないっとかって言う / 優秀な証拠

eeky

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Hi,


1. 勉強がなくなったら、自分が何がやりたいのか、わかん なくなちゃって・・・。なんか、心を支えっていうかさ 、そういうのがなくなっちゃったんだよ。

I believe the first sentence means "When studying (at university) was over, I didn't really know what I wanted to do."

I guess the second sentence is probably roughly talking about the speaker losing his sense of purpose, but I am having difficulty with the detail, especially 心を支えっていうかさ, and the purpose of いう and か (assuming I am parsing it properly).


2. だけど、考えてみろよ。

Presumably みろ is the abrupt imperative of みる, right?


3. おまえ生きがいがわからないっとかって言うけど、おま え今まで結構すごいこと、やってきたんだぜ。

I believe this means: "You say you don't know your purpose in life and so on, yet so far you've been doing great"

I'm trying to get わからないっとかって言う to mean わからない + とか ("and so on") + って (quoting) + 言う, but I am missing the first っ. How does that fit? Or am I parsing it incorrectly?


4. だいだい、「俺の生きがいは・・・」なんて考えてると ころがさ、優秀な証拠だよ。

I can make little sense of this. I'm wondering if だいだい is a typo for だいたい, but that doesn't help with the rest of it. What does it mean, and what is the connection between the first part and 優秀な証拠?
 

Toritoribe

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1)
Are there any typos there; 心の支えっていうかさ or 心を支えるっていうかさ?

Yeah, you can think っていうか as a kind of set phrase, meaning "something like".

2)
Right.

3)
I thought わからないっとかって言う was a typo of わからないとかって言う, but if the first っ is actually there, it's for emphasis as same as an exclamation mark.

4)
Yes, it's a typo of だいたい.

「俺の生きがいは・・・」なんて考えてるところ(=こ と)が、おまえが優秀な証拠だ

Does this make sense?
 

eeky

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1. I'm sorry, it should be 心支えっていうかさ, as you say. So, 支え is a noun and って is quoting, right?

3. Yes, the first っ is there, but of course it could be a typo in the book.

4. I understand 「俺の生きがいは・・・」なんて考えてるところ(=こ と), but I do not understand the overall sentence structure, nor the が ... が pattern in your expanded version, nor the exact relevance of 優秀な証拠 in this context. I'm trying to make it mean that 「俺の生きがいは・・・」なんて考えてるところ is proof of the other person's good qualities, or something like that, but I cannot see how it works.
 

Toritoribe

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1)
Yes.

4)
Very close. 「俺の生きがいは・・・」なんて考えてるところ is proof of your(= the addressee's) good qualities. 俺 also refers to the addressee, of course.
 

eeky

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Thanks, I think I get the meaning now. But in your version,

「俺の生きがいは・・・」なんて考えてるところ(=こ と)が、おまえが優秀な証拠だ,

is the first が a subject marker? In what sense is the second が used? Even in the sense of の I can't see how the correct meaning arises. Could you explain how that が ... が grammar works?
 

Toritoribe

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The first が indicates the subject of 証拠だ, i.e., the whole sentence, whereas the second one is the subject of 優秀(な/だ), i.e., the modifying clause. The second が can be rephrased with の, and 優秀な ca be rephrased with 優秀だという.

おまえが優秀な証拠: proof that you have good qualities
 

eeky

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Oh. This is all quite puzzling for me. I thought 優秀な was a な-adjective modifying 証拠, with a meaning like "excellent evidence".

Can we go back to the original sentence?:

だいたい、「俺の生きがいは・・・」なんて考えてると ころがさ、優秀な証拠だよ。

As I understand it now, you are saying that 優秀 is a property/quality of the person being addressed, and not a modifier of 証拠. Is that correct?
 

eeky

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However, if we read 優秀な証拠 in some other context, then 優秀な could modify 証拠 to create a meaning like "very good evidence", and we only know it doesn't mean that in the original sentence by looking at which interpretation makes most sense.

Is that also right?
 
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Toritoribe

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No. The adjective 優秀な is never used to express the evidence is excellent. Instead, for instance 有力な, 確実な is used for the case. 優秀な証拠 ALWAYS means an evidence that someone/something is excellent.
 
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eeky

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Right, I see.

I note that WWWJDIC lists 優秀 as a な-adjective without any further caveats. Are there cases of 優秀なX where 優秀な modifies X in the usual way?

Would you classify 優秀な証拠 (or 優秀な~) a special case or set expression or idiom? Or is this an instance of a general grammar pattern XなY where X is a な-adjective and yet it does not modify Y?
 

Toritoribe

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Yes, of course 優秀な or any other adjectives usually modify a noun following it. The key is the combination of 優秀な and 証拠. As I wrote previously, 優秀な is never used to show the quality of evidence. This is a kind of "outside relation" and the modification like 優秀な証拠 belongs to "exceptions". There are some similar sets of words besides it; 頭がいい証拠, 難しい見通し, 怠惰なせい...
 

eeky

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Thanks, I'm glad that this is an exception or special case.

Earlier on, you mentioned that in this case 優秀な can be rephrased with 優秀だという.

If we take an ordinary XなY construction, such as 静かな音楽, or いろいろな動物, or whatever, can な also be rephrased with だという? It seems reasonable to me, but I am not certain if it always works.
 

Toritoribe

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No. な can't be rephrased with だという in those cases. という is used only for outside relations.

Indeed 優秀な証拠, i.e., the case that the subject of the modifying clause is omitted is rare, but I believe that you've come across this type of modification(outside relation) relatively frequently. For instance, if you see a clause 彼がここに来た証拠, you would interprit it "evidence that he came here", and won't think that 証拠 is the object, target or subject of 来た. Since the adnominal/attributive form(連体形) and the conclusive form(終止形) of verbs/i-adjectives are completely the same in Modern Japanese, we can't distinguish the difference between them, but in fact the 来た in 彼が来た証拠 is the 連体形 and 来た in 彼が来たという証拠 is the 終止形. We can see the difference in classical phrases like 彼のここに来たる証拠 vs 彼のここに来たりという証拠. That's why 優秀な証拠 and 優秀だという証拠 are used.

In conclusion, 優秀な in 優秀な証拠 is a modifying clause which the subject is omitted from, and not just an adjective.
 

eeky

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Thanks Toritoribe, your reply is very interesting and helpful.
 
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