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元気じゃありません

healer

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A textbook says that the captioned sentence is the negative of the na-adjective 元気な. while the negative of the noun is 元気がありません.
Isn't 元気じゃありません also the negative of the noun 元気 too since the syntaxes of the negative to nouns and to na-adjectives are identical?

How does one choose which to say since both have the same meaning?
 

Toritoribe

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Isn't 元気じゃありません also the negative of the noun 元気 too since the syntaxes of the negative to nouns and to na-adjectives are identical?
Seemingly, the forms are the same between "the stem of na-adective" and "noun", but the meanings are different. Think about the difference between "subject is healthy" and "subject is health" in English. For instance, "a person" usually can't be the subject in the second sentence, isn't it? Similarly, 彼の精神は元気だ "his mental is healthy" is valid, but 彼の精神は元気がある "his mental has health" sounds odd.
examples of stem of na-adjective
彼は元気だ。
彼は元気じゃない。
彼の身体は元気だ。
彼の身体は元気ではない。

examples of noun
彼は元気がある。
彼は元気がない。
病気の反対語は元気だ。
病気の同義語は元気ではない。


元気がありません is a negative of 元気があります, not 元気です. Thus, you can use ~がありません only when ~があります is valid.
e.g.
〇彼は勇敢です。
〇彼は勇敢ではありません。
×彼は勇敢があります。
×彼は勇敢がありません。
〇彼(に)は勇敢さがあります。(note: 勇敢さ is the noun form of 勇敢.)
〇彼(に)は勇敢がありません。

×彼は勇気です。
×彼は勇気ではありません。
〇彼(に)は勇気があります。
〇彼(に)は勇気がありません。
(Think about "He is brave" and "He has bravery" vs. "He is bravery".)

〇ここは自由です。
〇ここは自由ではありません。
〇ここ(に)は自由があります。
〇ここ(に)は自由がありません。
 

healer

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note: 勇敢さ is the noun form of 勇敢
I understand we can always add さ to the stem of na-adjectives and i-adjectives to form the nouns. Does it apply only to those adjectives which are not nouns at the same time.
For example, we can do that to 勇敢 because it is a na-adjective only and not a noun at the same time but we can't do that to 元気 because 元気 is a noun in addition to being a na-adjective. I haven't been able to think of the stem of an i-adjective which is also a noun. So I suppose adding さ to i-adjectives to form noun s always apply.
 

healer

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Well, I've just found 穏やか which is a na-adjective as well as a noun can be converted to a noun again by adding さ to become 穏やかさ. So my presumption is wrong.
 

Toritoribe

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穏やか doesn't work as a noun. We can't make a natural sentence with using 穏やかが or 穏やかを.

自由 is the stem of a na-adective and a noun at the same time, as I gave examples in my previous post, but 自由さ is also valid. 自由 means "freedom", whereas 自由さ is "the level/degree of freedom", "how free it is". The same goes to 元気 vs. 元気さ.

By the way, there is another suffix for nominalization of adjectives, み. These two suffixes are different in the function. For instance, 高さ means "height/how high (or low) it is", while 高み is "high place" (e.g. 山の高み "the summit of a mountain"), Similarly, 深さ is "depth", and 深み is "deep place". (Incidentally, 低さ and 浅さ exist, but 低み and 浅み are invalid.)
 

healer

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Does it apply only to those adjectives which are not nouns at the same time.
According to the examples you gave I suppose you have already implied that my assumption as quoted above is wrong.

Thanks for introducing to me about converting adjectives to noun by suffixingみ to the stem. Does it apply to na-adjectives too?

I can’t find some of the ~み noun in the dictionary though I can see them when I google. So I would simply think that dictionaries can’t cover everything.

By the way two dictionaries I use often do say 穏やか is both a na-adjective and a noun.
 

Toritoribe

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According to the examples you gave I suppose you have already implied that my assumption as quoted above is wrong.
Exactly. A counterexample can deny an inference.

Does it apply to na-adjectives too?
Yes, but not so many. I can think of now is only one example あたたかみ.

EDIT:
あたたか is the stem of the na-adjective あたたかだ, but it's also the stem of the i-adjective あたたかい at the same time, so it's unclear which one, i-adjective or na-adective, み is attached to in this example. み might be only attached to i-adjectives.

I can’t find some of the ~み noun in the dictionary though I can see them when I google. So I would simply think that dictionaries can’t cover everything.
Yes, indeed.

By the way two dictionaries I use often do say 穏やか is both a na-adjective and a noun.
Dictionaries are not useful for this matter, as I already pointed out in this thread.
 
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