アメリカ合衆国は、五十の州とコロンビア特別区から構成される。
- Thread starter healer
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- 12 Oct 2004
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Yes, you can think of it as being constructed/composed from a set of constituent parts.
- 12 Oct 2004
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The standard neutral counter ひとつ、ふたつ etc. only continues up to ここのつ (nine). From there, it continues on as 十（とお／じゅう）、十一（じゅういち）、十二（じゅうに）、二十（にじゅう）, etc. Rather than thinking of it has having "no counter", it is probably better to think of the 一つ、二つ series transforming into a "null counter" from ten onwards.
- 22 Feb 2008
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When counting words that is related to locations, buildings or facilities like 国, 地方, 山, 川, 谷, 海, 工場, 大学, etc., and the number is more than 10, "number の word" can be used. When the number is less than 9, a counter like つ or カ所 is needed even for these words.
e.g.
〇4つの国からなる連邦
×4の国からなる連邦
〇4カ国からなる連邦
〇190の国からなる連邦
〇190カ国からなる連邦
〇この県には5つの山がある。
〇この県には5座の山がある。
×この県には5の山がある。
〇この県には12座の山がある。
〇この県には12の山がある。
e.g.
〇4つの国からなる連邦
×4の国からなる連邦
〇4カ国からなる連邦
〇190の国からなる連邦
〇190カ国からなる連邦
〇この県には5つの山がある。
〇この県には5座の山がある。
×この県には5の山がある。
〇この県には12座の山がある。
〇この県には12の山がある。
- Thread starter
- #6
Do you mean the number equal or more than 10 (=>10)?
Where do we use カ所? Could I have some examples?
Can we use カ所 as a counter for all places, such as the examples you gave?
Is カ the same as 箇? Do we not usually use kanji?
Ref: カ - Jisho.org
counter for the ichi-ni-san counting system (usu. directly preceding the item being counted); a noun read using its on-yomi
国 here is still read as くに not こく, isn't it? The kun-yomi.
For counting, do we always have の between the counter or the number (where there is no counter) and the noun?
The quoted example of yours doesn't have の. Is it correct?
Lastly could you tell me how Japan divide the country geopolitically in Japanese and English?
For example: 県 prefecture and so forth.
Is the following translation correct? The result below is from Google Translate.
The country of Australia consists of six states and two on-shore territories: Queensland, Victoria, Tasmania, New South Wales, Western Australia, South Australia, the Northern Territory and the Australian Capital Territory.
オーストラリアの国は、クイーンズランド州、ビクトリア州、タスマニア州、ニューサウスウェールズ州、西オーストラリア州、南オーストラリア州、ノーザンテリトリー、オーストラリア首都準州の6つの州と2つの陸上領土で構成されています。
- 22 Feb 2008
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Yes.
3か所のビル/駅/公園/池/平野, etc., etc.
It's not common for 国 and 地方, but the rest are OK or at least acceptable in my examples. In other words, it's not used for all places.
Yes and no. 箇所 is often used for the meaning "place/part" rather than a counter.
e.g.
説明の中で分かりにくい箇所があったら教えてください。
No. The reading of カ国 is かこく.
It's not "の is not there", but "the noun is not there". カ国 is a counter as a set. It's not "counter カ + noun 国".
Some counters can work as a noun just in the combination "number + counter" without the noun. You say 1か月 for "a month", not 1か月の月, don't you?
other examples
市内の3カ所で崖崩れがあった。(instead of 3か所の崖/場所)
事故で5人がけがをした。(instead of 5人の人)
They consist of 43 prefectures (県 ken) proper, two urban prefectures (府 fu, Osaka and Kyoto), one "circuit" or "territory" (道 dō, Hokkaido) and one "metropolis" (都 to, Tokyo).
Prefectures of Japan - Wikipedia
It should be オーストラリアは、クイーンズランド州、ビクトリア州、タスマニア州、ニューサウスウェールズ州、西オーストラリア州、南オーストラリア州の6つの州/6州と、ノーザンテリトリー（or 北部準州）と首都特別地域の2つの特別地域で構成されています。
You can look up the Japanese translation of proper nouns in wikipedia.
オーストラリアの州と特別地域 - Wikipedia
- Thread starter
- #8
Are both か所 and 箇所 above the same 単語 the same pronunciation but written differently for their respective purpose, aren't they? I call them 単語. Is it correct?
It's somewhat unusual, in that a single kanji on its own is usually read in kun-yomi and I've come across this single character read as くに all the time. So the noun after カ, the counter is always read in on-yomi like what the dictionary says whether it's one kanji or more, isn't it?
It did throw me. I didn't know カ国 is a counter. That was why I read 国 as くに being a single kanji is always read in kun-yomi and I never saw this kanji read as こく while on its own. I had supposed カ is a counter and 国 can be a state or a region so it did make sense in the example, just like 1か月 I took カ as a counter and 月 as month. I suppose 3カ所 is in the same situation though 所 by itself can also refer to a place. Is there a way we can easily tell whether a counter can be a noun as well? Can I say those counters consist of more than one kana especially those come with a kanji would be a counter and a noun as well. The dictionary I use never says they are nouns as well as a counter but counter only. I was somehow aware that 5人 is a counter and a noun because I learn it with example sentences from the very beginning.
- 22 Feb 2008
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単語 is not wrong, but sounds odd to me. Those are two different parts of speech, so I would say か所 is 助数詞 "counter" and 箇所 is 名詞 "noun".
I wrote "some counters can work as a noun ", not "some counters are noun". It's more likely nounal usage of counter than noun.
Almost all counters can work as a noun.
e.g.
リンゴを5個買いました。１個は食べて、残りの４個は冷蔵庫に入れました。
In the second sentence above, １個 and ４個 perform as noun. You don't need to say １個のリンゴ or リンゴ１個 since it's obvious from the context.
For some counters like 人, か国 or か所, the noun is always obvious (people, country and place/part, respectively), so the noun always can be omitted. This kind of counters are not so many.
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- #10
I'm still not too sure what 単語 is in Japanese language.
I've been told that kana is used because the kanji it too complicated to write, but why リンゴ is written in katakana instead of hiragana. By the way I've found problem in writing difficult words in any language is no longer an issue when one writes with a computer. In English language there is spell-check. In Japanese language it is just a matter of choosing the appropriate word.
The は particle is used in the second sentence instead of を that I would have expected. I'm not too sure why the first one is は but the second one could be used for contrasting, I guess.
Before I read this statement of yours, I took １個 and ４個 as counters. Are you saying we can't have counters there grammatically? That is why we call them nouns, not counters.
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- 22 Feb 2008
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There are several definitions, as I already pointed out. Counter might not be treated as 単語 since it only works in the combination "number + counter".
In the science field, the names of plants and animals are written in katakana in the MEXT's guideline. This rule also affect daily life. There is no problem with hiragana, of course. As you wrote, it's the problem of preference as same as 3個 vs. 三個 or か所 vs. カ所 vs. ヶ所.
The first one is also for contrasting. Aは～、Bは・・・。 is a set for contrast.
You've seen that the -masu stem of verbs works as a noun so far, right? It performs as a noun in a sentence, but grammatically it's not a noun but an inflection of verb. It's the same for counters.
