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ように~、ために~、のに。

Kriffix

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Hey everyone, I`ve been in Japan for four months now and i have one left before i go home. Something i really can`t get to the bottom of is this...
(verb)ように~
(verb)ために~
(verb)のに (not the "despite" version)
all of these mean "in order to" and "so that" or so i`ve heard, although there are situations where they are interchangeable and also some where they are not. I've looked through all my books, asked natives and even entered the interwubs. I think the answer to this question lies in people who have been in this situation before though, and so i ask you guys out there to please lend me a hand if you have a third one.
Some examples and explainations as to why/why not would be mega super special awesome.
one last thing which will perhaps compromise my character...i haven`t really started studying Kanji. *DUN DUN DUN* however my excuse is perhaps one of the better ones (perhaps anyway) In these 5 months i wanted to practice verbally whilst i have natives around me, which is something i wouldn't be able to do at home. Sitting down and memorising stuff would be a real waste of opportunity. The 200 or so Kanji i know atm have been coincidentally picked up whilst being over here.
So basically what i`m asking is that...if examples could also have hiragana versions too?
お願いします!
 

Putrefaction

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Hey, it's better than me. I got around 150 but I know no grammar whatsoever outside of saying this is and that is, I'm now starting on I eat, I don't eat, etc. I'd definitely do the same as you did if I were in Japan.
 

grapefruit

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Hey everyone, I`ve been in Japan for four months now and i have one left before i go home. Something i really can`t get to the bottom of is this...
(verb)ように~
(verb)ために~
(verb)のに (not the "despite" version)
all of these mean "in order to" and "so that" or so i`ve heard, although there are situations where they are interchangable and also some where they are not. I`ve looked through all my books, asked natives and even entered the interwubs.
Well... since you've already read all your books and asked questions to native speakers, I don't think my attempt would go much beyond what you already know.😌

But, I'll try, to make the thread going (このスレが続くように😊).

ように must be explained with non-volitional verbs, actions or events that the speaker has no control over.

お腹がすくように, 日本語がぺらぺらになるように、テストで100点とれるように、間食しないように、etc.

In the above examples, the verbs すく and なる and the grammatical constructions "potential" and "negation" involve things that the speaker has not control over.  

ために, on the other hand, accompanies actions that the speaker has control over.
お腹をすかせるために、日本語をぺらぺらにするために、テストで100点とるために、etc..

Having said these, I have to admit there are tons of things that do not fit into this pattern like 痩せるように vs. 痩せるために.  Also noun plus naru seems to take ため (e.g. お金持ちになるために).:p

So, my attempt for explanation failed....:(
 

Toritoribe

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No, grapefruit-san's clarification is correct.👍There's another requirement when ために can be used.
Both of the subjects of the main clause and the subordinate clause must be the same one.

(私は)日本に行くために、お金を貯めた。
(わたしは)にほんにいくために、おかねをためた。
I saved money to go to Japan.

"にほんにいく; Go to Japan" is the subject's (the speaker's) volitional act, and the person who saved the money is also the speaker.


On the other hand, ように can be used when the both subjects are different.

水が流れるように、溝を掘った。
みずがながれるように、みぞをほった。
I dug a ditch so that the water ran off.

In the sentence above, the subject of the subordinate clause 水 is different to the one of the main clause "I, the speaker."

水を流すために、(私は)溝を掘った。
みずをながすために、(わたしは)みぞをほった。

In this case, the person who ran the water and dug a ditch are same, "the speaker." So ために can be used.

Also, ように often used with possible verbs.

日本に行けるように、(私は)お金を貯めている。
にほんにいけるように、(わたしは)おかねをためている。
I'm saving money so that I can go to Japan.

妹が大学に行けるように、彼は懸命に働いている。
いもうとがだいがくにいけるように、かれはけんめいにはたらいている。
He is working hard so that his sister can go to college.


のに is used only with a type of verbs/adjectives in the main clause.
かかる・要[い]る・大切[たいせつ]だ・便利[べんり]だ・役[やく]に立[た]つ・いい・使[つか]う・利用[りよう]する・苦労[くろう]する...

日本に行くのに、お金が要る。
にほんにいくのに、おかねがいる。
I need money to go to Japan.

These verbs/adjectives are used with the particle に when the object is the noun too.

旅行にお金が要る。
りょこうにおかねがいる。
I need money for the travel.

This のに is considerd as "the nominalizer の + the particle に."

hope this helps:)
 

grapefruit

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のに is used only with a type of verbs/adjectives in the main clause.
かかる・要[い]る・大切[たいせつ]だ・便利[べんり]だ・役[やく]に立[た]つ・いい・使[つか]う・利用[りよう]する・苦労[くろう]する...
日本に行くのに、お金が要る。
にほんにいくのに、おかねがいる。
I need money to go to Japan.
These verbs/adjectives are used with the particle に when the object is the noun too.
旅行にお金が要る。
りょこうにおかねがいる。
I need money for the travel.
This のに is considered as "the nominalizer の + the particle に."
hope this helps
:)

This is very informative!👍 I learned a lot. Thank you, Toritoribe-san.
 

Chidoriashi

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Hmm never really thought about it before but i guess saying something を。。ように does sound weird.
 

Kriffix

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Thanks guys, you`re real life savers.

I think the problem with asking natives is that the grammar is so natural to them, they haven`t thought about it before (tons of similar stuff in English no doubt). You can ask them if something is correct and they can always answer, but if you ask "why" even if its a simple something that you already know then from my experience they can rarely answer. Theres this guy in my class and this girl nextdoor who are phenominally fluent and intellegent who can usually find the answer though. However this you ni/tame ni/noni thing had us really stumped. One thing that Haruka was able to conclude was that "You ni" cannot be used for oneself unless the verb is in its "ability form" (which has been mentioned above! thanks)

I`ve only skimmed the answers, i plan to study them for as long as it takes from now onwards. If theres anything else that you guys want to add, or even just more examples then please do, it would mean alot! I REALLY want to master this by monday.:)
 

Chidoriashi

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Do not tire yourself out too much with grammar details though, remember it is a language, not a math formula. Increase your vocab day by day and try out new words and phrases as much as you can, and listen for how natives use the vocab words you have learned.
 

Kriffix

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Do not tire yourself out too much with grammar details though, remember it is a language, not a math formula. Increase your vocab day by day and try out new words and phrases as much as you can, and listen for how natives use the vocab words you have learned.

Wise words, thank you i`ll keep that in mind.

I`ll try to look at a bunch of examples until it sinks in naturally. Thanks to you guys i now understand the concept and the differences, so my aim now is to "use it" in daily life.

Thanks again.
 
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