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もらう + 3rd person?

dhmkhkk

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Hi guys,

Iˋve learnt that „morau“ can only be used when the receiver is the 1st person or a member of the speaker‘s in group. (は父にカメラをもらった) Same goes for ~てもらう. Then I see the following example in the „dictionary of basic japanese grammar“:

ジョンソンさんは鈴木さんに日本語を教えてもらっている
Mr. Johnson has Mr. Suzuki teaching him Japanese.

So, what about „the rule of the 1st person“? How can „morau“ be used when it is the 3rd person which is receiving something?

Also, is there a rule or something how to differentiate if ~てもらう means „I am receiving a favor from someone“ or „I am making/having someone do something for me“? Thanks!
 

Toritoribe

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Iˋve learnt that „morau“ can only be used when the receiver is the 1st person or a member of the speaker‘s in group.
Where did you get it from? Actually, くれる can be used only when the recipient is the speaker or the speaker's in-group member(s), but もらう is not so. Thus, your understanding is wrong in the first place. There is no problem to use もらう when the recipient is third person just like the example you found.
See the following thread.
Please help me understand these two sentences! ~てもらう、~てくれる | Japan Forum

Also, is there a rule or something how to differentiate if ~てもらう means „I am receiving a favor from someone“ or „I am making/having someone do something for me“?
Only the context differentiates the meaning.
 

bentenmusume

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The first is a bit misleading. Though it is true that もらう is not used in cases where the giver is you or an in-group member and the recipient is not (e.g. like in the example with Yamamoto-san), the Genki explanation clearly states that it can be used for third-party transactions.

(The top explanation also alludes to this in the explanation regarding "requiring the receiver's point of view." I would say this is the key concept to grasp about the usage of もらう.)
 

dhmkhkk

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Thank you. But "if you can assume the perspective of a recipient" means for me "a member of the speakers in-group". In the Genki example, it is his/her sister.

So to make it clear... it is possible to use morau with any kind of 3rd person except when the giver is myself/a member of my in-group? So far morau is really connected to 私 for me. It's always "me" who receives.
 

Toritoribe

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But "if you can assume the perspective of a recipient" means for me "a member of the speakers in-group". In the Genki example, it is his/her sister.
You can think from others' viewpoint whether they are your in-group members or not, for instance even enemy, no?

So to make it clear... it is possible to use morau with any kind of 3rd person except when the giver is myself/a member of my in-group?
Yes.

So far morau is really connected to 私 for me. It's always "me" who receives.
Simply you are wrong. What is the source of your quote, by the way? I don't think the explanation is appropriate.
 

dhmkhkk

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Simply you are wrong.
Wow, that's harsh :emoji_laughing: I though the Japanese are really careful with words, but I guess that's not the case haha. Nice :) I remember once I told a Japanese friend "I don't want to watch Totoro, I think it is not beautifully drawn". She was utterly shocked at my words and said that I'm too harsh for her Japanese ear.

But anyway, thank you for clarifying about morau. I feel much better now since it makes much more sense to me :emoji_blush:
 

Toritoribe

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Oh, sorry for that!
Incidentally, the giver can be the speaker when the speaker is talking on the addressee's viewpoint. See the following examples.

この種の手紙を私からもらおうとは、もちろん君も期待していないだろう。
キケロー選集 written by Marcus Tullius Cicero, translated by 高橋宏幸

一梃は自分ので、一梃は私の剃刀で、古くなって使わずに置いたのを、磨ぎ減らしてかえってよく切れるからと、私から貰って、自分で使って居りました
銭形平次捕物控 花嫁の幻想 written by 野村胡堂

It's also used in questions.
僕からプレゼントもらってもうれしくない?
Aren't you glad if you receive a present from me?
 

lanthas

 
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The language has plenty more surprises in store for you. For example, there'll come a point when you learn that despite what the textbooks say, くれる can also be used (sarcastically) for a "service" you're not happy about at all, or even when you give someone an item (to your subordinate).
 

Toritoribe

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くれる can also be used (sarcastically) for a "service" you're not happy about at all
よくもやってくれたな

another example that the recipient is neither the speaker nor the speaker's in-group member
返り討ちにしてくれるわ(=返り討ちにしてやるわ)
(the speaker is the giver of (negative) favor)

These are both sarcastic usages.
 

dhmkhkk

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Very interesting, thanks guys. I know I know, there are always special cases. But for my level now I would like to concentrate on rules for now :)
 
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