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ものなのか

zuotengdazuo

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しかしこういう買い物を他人に頼む図太さはあるくせに、こんなものを飲んでまで取り戻したいものがあるものなのか。歳を取るっていうのもけっこう切ないものなのかなと、僕は須賀さんの髪に混じる白髪を思い出しながら思う。

Hi. Do the two ものなのか have the same meaning and function? How are they different from just 〜か?
Thank you.
 

Toritoribe

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Notice that the second one is actually ものなのか, thus, they are different, as same as か and かな are different.
In that sentence, ものなのか shows the speaker's surprise, and ものなのかな implies their understanding/consent to it.
 

zuotengdazuo

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Thank you. So can I think of ものなのか as a set phrase? Or does it have any variations? For example, is ものなのか the same as ものか?
 

Toritoribe

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So can I think of ものなのか as a set phrase? Or does it have any variations?
It's the latter. Both are variations of ~ものだ.
e.g.
ものだ
ものなのだ
ものなのだろう
ものなのかもしれない
ものなのか
ものなのかな
ものなのだろうね
ものなのかもしれないよね
etc. etc.

For example, is ものなのか the same as ものか?
Those two expressions can be almost the same in some context, but basically those are different expressions/variations.

And who is “their”?
The speaker.
 

zuotengdazuo

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Thank you again.
So can we use ものだ or ものか to replace the first ものなのか in the first sentence?
If we can, what is the difference between the three versions?
 

Toritoribe

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ものだ is for assertion, so it's different from the original.

ものか can have a similar meaning, but it loses the explanatory tone given by の. Plus, it could be misunderstood as a rhetorical question (e.g. 彼がそんなことを言うものか (=彼はそんなことは言わない)).
 

zuotengdazuo

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Thank you again.
So please let me be more specific, what is the function and meaning of the two ものs respectively? I think the first もの indicate the speaker’s surprise while the second もの refers to 歳を取る.
 

Toritoribe

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This もの is not a pronoun to represent something. ~ものだ is a set phrase, and those two expressions in the quote are both variations of it, as I already wrote in the post #5. As for the meaning, I already gave it in the post #2, too.
 

zuotengdazuo

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Thank you. I see.
By the way, can we just say 歳を取るもけっこう切ないものなのかなと in this context?
 

zuotengdazuo

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Thank you. So what would be the nuance by adding っていう (or という)?
 

bentenmusume

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It's just the typical use of という as a quotative. It's the difference between saying "getting older is X" and (literally) "this thing we call getting older" or what-have-you.

It's more of a rhetorical flourish than anything that fundamentally changes the meaning or nuance of what's being said.
 
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