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もう versus もっと for more

healer

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I try to work out the difference in usage between もうand もっとfor the meaning of “more”. According to the following example sentences, could I say もうfor nouns, adjectives and adverbs whereas もっとfor verbs?

もう少し早くして下さい。
もう一度やってみて。
もっと運動をする必要があります。
もっと召し上がりますか。
 

bentenmusume

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It's actually a bit simpler than that. もう has to be attached to something. Note that in your examples you have もう少し and もう一度. If you took out 少し or 一度, those sentences would be ungrammatical.

Likewise, changing もっと in the latter two sentences to もう would make them ungrammatical unless you added something like もう少し運動をする必要があります or もう一個召し上がりますか, etc.

Long story short; もっと is a general purpose "more" that can attach to a predicate, whereas もう is "more (something)" and needs to be attached to something.
 

healer

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In fact if my memory serves me right I think I have only come across もう going with 少し (an adverb) or 一度 (noun) and nothing else for the meaning of "more". Any other examples that もう goes with for the same meaning?

So you are saying もう少し is the same as もっと and they interchangeable, aren't you?

By the way, I've found もっと goes with adjectives too, such as "先生、試験をもっと易しくして下さい。
So もっと goes with verbs and adjectives. Would もっと go with nouns and adverbs as well?
 

Toritoribe

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In fact if my memory serves me right I think I have only come across もう going with 少し (an adverb) or 一度 (noun) and nothing else for the meaning of "more". Any other examples that もう goes with for the same meaning?
もう as "more" can be attached to "number + counter", as jt_-san gave an example もう一個.
e.g.
もう10cm背が高かったらなあ。
もう一着上着を着てくればよかった。
もう一日だけここにいたい。

So you are saying もう少し is the same as もっと and they interchangeable, aren't you?
The functions are close, but the meanings are different. It's "a little bit more" vs. "more".

By the way, I've found もっと goes with adjectives too, such as "先生、試験をもっと易しくして下さい。
So もっと goes with verbs and adjectives. Would もっと go with nouns and adverbs as well?
Yes for adverbs, but no for nouns. もっと is used for "degree/level" as same as "more" in English. Can you think of any example of "more noun" in English?

To supplement to jt_-san's explanation about もう, もう運動をする必要があります。 or もう召し上がりますか。 are grammatical, but the meaning of もう is not "more" here. It means "already" or "soon".
 

healer

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もう10cm背が高かったらなあ。
Is the ~たら conditional form used above conveying the meaning of a wish? なあ is only used for getting attention.

The functions are close, but the meanings are different. It's "a little bit more" vs. "more".
It seems to me that もう needs a quantifier to go with while もっと by itself already means "a little bit more" where "a little bit" is a quantity..

Yes for adverbs, but no for nouns. もっと is used for "degree/level" as same as "more" in English.
I suppose 易しく is already an adverb adapted from an adjective.

Can you think of any example of "more noun" in English?
I'm not too sure if it is a trick question or a rhetorical question. Aren't there "more people", "more water" etc?
When I look up on Google Translate, it says より多くの人 and より多くの水. Are they correct?
Can we say もっと 人 and もっと 水, be it countable noun or uncountable noun?
I can see a lot of example sentences using もっと with all sorts of words here:
 

Toritoribe

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Is the ~たら conditional form used above conveying the meaning of a wish? なあ is only used for getting attention.
Yes for たら. You can think it's the omitted version of ~たらいいのになあ/よかったのになあ. The sentence ending particle な(あ) is for 詠嘆 "expressing the speaker's impression/emotion".

It seems to me that もう needs a quantifier to go with while もっと by itself already means "a little bit more" where "a little bit" is a quantity..
You were comparing もう少し with もっと in your question, not もう vs. もっと, so I explained about it. The problem is on me, or you?

もっと means "more", not "a little bit more". The speaker makes the listener hurry up more strongly in もっと早くしてください comparing to もう少し早くして下さい。, or the degree/level of the demand speed or timing of もっと is higher or earlier than もう少し.

I suppose 易しく is already an adverb adapted from an adjective.
Speaking strictly in grammar perspective, that's the adverbial form of the adjective 易しい, but yes, your understanding is not wrong.

Aren't there "more people", "more water" etc?
Ah, yes. To tell the truth, I couldn't think of those examples at the time.

Can we say もっと 人 and もっと 水, be it countable noun or uncountable noun?
No. Both are wrong. もっと can't be used for nouns.

When I look up on Google Translate, it says より多くの人 and より多くの水. Are they correct?
Yes.

I can see a lot of example sentences using もっと with all sorts of words here:
もっと (more) - Example sentences - JLPT N5
もっと modifies verbs, adjectives or adverbs in all those examples. Even if a noun is put right after a noun, もっと actually doesn't modify it.
e.g.
もっとコーヒーはいかがですか = コーヒーはもっといかがですか
トニーはもっとお金をもらわねばならないと言った = トニーはお金をもっともらわねばならないと言った
もっと分別があって当然だ = 分別がもっとあって当然だ
あなたはもっと文法を勉強しなくてはいけない = あなたは文法をもっと勉強しなくてはいけない
 

healer

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The problem is on me, or you?
There was no problem at all, definitely not you anyway. I was just summarising what I understood from all the info on hand hoping to help have the idea firmly set in my memory. On the other hand I also hoped you could correct me if I somehow got it wrong.

I appreciate your further explanation. It helps me understand even better.

Is that the only way to say for "more people", "more water"? That is もっと 人 and もっと 水. How would one put these in a sentence if you don't mind?

Even if a noun is put right after a noun, もっと actually doesn't modify it.
It really throws me especially there is no verb, no adjective and no adverb in the sentence such as もっとコーヒーはいかがですか. Perhaps いかが is an adverb.
 

bentenmusume

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Is that the only way to say for "more people", "more water"? That is もっと 人 and もっと 水. How would one put these in a sentence if you don't mind?
「もっとお水ください」 would be a perfectly acceptable way of saying "Please give me more water."
For "more people", my instinct is to say that 「もっとたくさんの人に来てもらいたい,」 for example, would be a more natural and idiomatic way to say "I want more people to come."

It really throws me especially there is no verb, no adjective and no adverb in the sentence such as もっとコーヒーはいかがですか. Perhaps いかが is an adverb.
I suppose you could consider いかが an adverb in the same way "how" is one Does the sentence "How about some more coffee?" throw you in English? The constructions strike me as almost identical.
 

Toritoribe

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"How about" also came to my mind. Similarly, いかがですか works as a set phrase in Japanese, thus, it works as the predicate as a set, and もっと modifies it.

もっと modifies ください in jt_-san's example もっとお水ください. The same goes to, for instance もっと人が要る.

The most common Japanese translation of Goethe's last words "Mehr Licht! (More light!)" is もっと光!. As I wrote, もっと can't modify nouns, so just もっと光 doesn't make much sense. を suggests that a verb is omitted, so we can easily guess that he actually wanted to say もっと光をくれ! or the like from the context.

As for より多くの人 and より多くの水, both are a single noun phrase as a set. より多くの modifies 人 or 水, so the word order can't be changed. On the other hand, もっと人, もっと水 or any other combinations of "もっと + noun" are two words, just an adverb もっと and a noun. There is no modifying relation between these two words, so the word order is flexible, as I already showed.
 

healer

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Does the sentence "How about some more coffee?" throw you in English?
But there is no such restriction in English grammar ... The word “more” certainly can qualify nouns.

Actually I meant to ask if one could sayより多くの人 and より多くの水 separately on their own. Perhaps in answering or requesting for more of them. I know that one can fit them in sentences like comparing (where よりmeans) with previous incident, one would like more water or more people.

Nevertheless I’m glad to get the examples you gave.
 

healer

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As for より多くの人 and より多くの水, both are a single noun phrase as a set.
We can always replace the nouns such as 人 or 水 with any other nouns, can’t we? Can we say something like these two noun phrases in isolation, i.e. not be part of a sentence. Perhaps simply answer a question or make a simple request.
 

bentenmusume

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Yes, there's no restriction on the type of noun. It could technically even be an uncountable noun like より多くの知識 or the like.

And for your second question, yes, pretty much any sentence fragment or noun phrase can be used in that way.

今、何が一番必要だと思います?
より多くの人に知ってもらうことです。

This really applies to almost anything.

誰が言ったんですか?
僕がです。

Even phrasings like this are possible and grammatical in Japanese.
 

bentenmusume

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Could you please explain in terms of grammar how に is used here instead of が. Thanks.
Have you learned ~てもらう and ~てくれる yet?
The subject of もらう is the one doing the receiving.

Xが知ってもらう would mean X is known (literally, receives the favor of being known) by (an unstated party). Xに知ってもらう means we (unstated, but understood in context) are known by X.

In this example (the context would be, say, a new shop wanting to attract more customers), the speaker wants more people to know about [their shop]. More people is the indirect object, not the subject who is receiving the benefit.

Can’t we simply say 僕です! What could be the difference, for emphasis?
Yes, you can, and yes, it would be used primarily for emphasis.
It puts extra focus on the fact whatever is being marked by が or を being the subject or direct object, respectively.

そして、虫を食べたんです。あのたけちゃんが、ですよ!Then, he ate a bug. That Take-chan did! (with the nuance being that the speaker is surprised, maybe because Take-chan is normally not an adventurous eater).
そして、食べたんです。虫を、ですよ!Then, he ate it. A bug! (the nuance being that a bug is a crazy thing to eat).

In situations where you're not necessarily emphasizing the grammatical relationship, the が and を will often be dropped.

Note that (noun)+(particle)+です is even more common in expressions like 「この傘は誰のですか?」「僕のです。」
In this case, it would feel slightly unnatural to drop the の. (cf. "Whose umbrella is this?" "It's mine." versus the less natural "Whose umbrella is this?" "It's me.")
 

healer

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Have you learned ~てもらう and ~てくれる yet?
The subject of もらう is the one doing the receiving.
Yes I have indeed.
Probably I haven't practised enough to have the grammar structure sunk in.
Using ~てくれる for receiving a favour is more natural to me when I think in the English language, but not ~てもらう. I have yet to change my thinking in a way to incorporate ~てもらう in the English language to help memorize it.
On second thought, is Xが知ってもらう really grammatical? Could you put it in a sentence for me? Thanks!

「この傘は誰のですか?」「僕のです。」
I remember Toritoribe-san gave me an example once, 私はうなぎです。
It was actually meant to be an answer in response to the waiter what the customer would like to order. The customer actually meant "For me, it is eel."
 

bentenmusume

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Yes I have indeed.
Probably I haven't practised enough to have the grammar structure sunk in.
Using ~てくれる for receiving a favour is more natural to me when I think in the English language, but not ~てもらう. I have yet to change my thinking in a way to incorporate ~てもらう in the English language to help memorize it.

At its most fundamental level, it's actually rather straightforward.

(田中さんが)日本語を教えてくれた。
Tanaka taught me Japanese. (lit. Tanaka gave me the favor of teaching me Japanese.)
(田中さんに)日本語を教えてもらった。
I had Tanaka teach me Japanese. (lit. I received the favor of Tanaka teaching me Japanese).

くれる is a verb of giving. The subject (marked with が) is the one doing the favor. もらう is a verb of receiving. The subject (here it's omitted, and implied from context to be the speaker) is the one receiving the favor, the giver of which is marked as the direct object with に.

Giving/receiving verbs can seem complicated and confusing at first, but if you can internalize concepts like this (ideally conceptually, rather than in terms of English), it'll go a long way.

On second thought, is Xが知ってもらう really grammatical? Could you put it in a sentence for me? Thanks!
There's nothing inherently ungrammatical about Xが(・・・)てもらう, as long as X is the subject who is receiving the favor. Xが知ってもらう is not as likely to be heard idiomatically. (You'd be more likely to hear something like, i.e. 我々のことを知ってもらう if you're talking about getting some unidentified party/parties to know about your organization, etc.), but this doesn't mean ~が(・・・てもらう)is inherently ungrammatical.

Here's an illustrative example from the internet:
どうしても、何かをもらうことばかりを考えてしまうのが人間である。自分がしてもらうことは当たり前で、自分がしてあげることは特別と考える。
There are people who just can't help always thinking about receiving favors. They tend to think that having things done for them is just the natural way of things, while them doing things for others is something special.

Note that 自分 appears twice, once as the subject of もらう and once as the subject of あげる, and the difference in meaning.

I remember Toritoribe-san gave me an example once, 私はうなぎです。
It was actually meant to be an answer in response to the waiter what the customer would like to order. The customer actually meant "For me, it is eel."
Well, yes. I remember that post, and the eel example is a famous one, but this is an illustration of the "loose binding" nature of the topic particle は, and not really related to your questions in this thread about using (noun)+(particle)+です.
 

healer

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but if you can internalize concepts like this (ideally conceptually, rather than in terms of English), it'll go a long way.
Definitely you’re right. I was just saying we hardly hear people say we have so-and-so do us a favour but someone does us a favour in the English-speaking world. However the former seems to be a very popular practice in Japanese language.

What is so special about this instead of 私達?

自分がしてもらうことは当たり前で
Thanks for the illustrative examples for もらう. The conclusion is that the noun preceding が is the subject of the following verb whereas the noun preceding に is giver of the favour.

not really related to your questions
I was trying to counter 僕のです where one might be able to simply say 僕です.
 

Toritoribe

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Using ~てくれる for receiving a favour is more natural to me when I think in the English language, but not ~てもらう. I have yet to change my thinking in a way to incorporate ~てもらう in the English language to help memorize it.
~てくれる often connotes that that's a spontaneous action of the subject, i.e., the giver of the favor, while ~てもらう often suggests that the subject, i.e., the recipient of the favor wants it. For instance, 彼が来てくれた suggests that he came by his will (e.g. he had heard that the speaker was in trouble), whereas the speaker might ask him to come in 彼に来てもらった.

In jt_san's example より多くの人に知ってもらうことです。, もらう can express their will "want to be known" more strongly. That's why もらう is more appropriate than くれる there.

By the way, you don't mention "もっと + noun" at all. Does that mean you already got that もっと can't modify nouns?
 

healer

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By the way, you don't mention "もっと + noun" at all. Does that mean you already got that もっと can't modify nouns?
Thanks for asking. Sometimes I just have to accept what is said without further dwelling on the subject at the time. I might not know what to ask. This grammar rule is somewhat tricky to me in that もっと can sit right before a noun and actually refers to that particular thing as far as the context in the English counterpart is concerned. Yet some of the sentences don't even have an adjective, an adverb or a verb where もっと could be applicable as we discussed in the earlier posts with examples. I might need to let the dust settle and get back to it latter when something comes to mind.

Thanks again!
 

Toritoribe

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Yet some of the sentences don't even have an adjective, an adverb or a verb where もっと could be applicable as we discussed in the earlier posts with examples.
What sentences are you referring to? We already explained that もっとコーヒーはいかがですか doesn't belong to those ones.
 

healer

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It’s okay. You have already explained that. You said もっと modifies the set phrase いかがですか which is not adjective, neither noun nor verb. Sentences of this type I need to be careful. I’m not sure what other set phrases would also take もっと.

You have done greatly. I appreciate that. I just need more exposure to them.
 
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