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まさ / なれ / くらいなら

eeky

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Hi,


1. 「どうしたのこうしたのって、やつは死んでまさ、さし 殺されて。」

What is まさ?


2. チェッコは、えい、どうともなれとばかり、両腕をなげ 出してから、はいってゆきました。

What does どうともなれとばかり mean, and how is the meaning obtained?


3. 「あそこへはいるくらいなら、首でもつりまさ。」とス ターキーが、なおもがんこに答えると、水夫一度の賛成の声がし ました。
「みんなで、おれに反抗する気か?」フックはたずねま した。

a) Is くらいなら = くらい・なら, in the sense that "if (I have to do) something as unpleasant as あそこへはいる (then I'd rather be hanged / be hanged instead)"? The difficulty I have with this explanation is that I don't see where any sense of "rather" or "instead" is coming from.

b) By analogy with a similar question the other day, could つりまさ mean つりますよ/ぞ?

c) Does 首でもつりまさ mean 首でつりまさ, with も added to show this is an extreme case? (Sorry about yet more simple questions about も; it is a word I have lots of difficulty with.)

d) Does 一度 mean that they all spoke at once?

e) What is the purpose of で in みんなで? Does it convey the idea that they were all acting together?

f) Does 気 refer to the intentions of the 水夫?
 

Toritoribe

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1)
a dialect of ますよ

He uses a "rough" (downtown-like) dialect.

2)
どうにでもなれといわんばかり(に)(=とでもいうような感じで) makes sense?

3) a)
Yes, your interpretation is correct. You might be more familiar with あそこへはいるくらいなら、首を吊ったほうがましだ?

b)
Exactly.

c)
首でつりまさ doesn't make sense. In this case, を is replaced with でも(= even). を or が "disappears" behind でも.

d)
I believe it's a typo of 一同.

e) f)
Yes.
 

eeky

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Thanks,

2. Sorry, I have no idea about this. I don't understand your paraphrase any better than the original.

3c. Oh, I didn't realise that this つる took a direct object. I thought で meant "by" as in English "be hanged by the neck".

3d. Oops, yes, it should be 一同. Somehow I read it as 一度.
 

Glenn

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Have you learned んばかりに? The ん here is from the volitional (言う→言わむ→言わん) and the ばかり part means "seeming like" or "as if to".
 

eeky

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Glenn, thanks, but I am only getting more confused. It's not just the ばかり part -- I don't understand any of どうともなれとばかり. I guess it is どう・とも・なれ・と・ばかり, but I have no clue what なれ is, or what any of the rest of it means when strung together.
 

Toritoribe

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なれ is the imperative form of 成る. とも is a bit classical. It's equevalent to ても/でも in modern Japanese(in this case, にでも, as I rephrased).

大辞泉 says that this と is originally from the quotation と.

とも
[副助]形容詞型活用語の連用形、あるいは量を表す副詞につく。量・程度や限度などを示す。「遅く―一一時までには帰る」「多少―理解を示す」
[補説]「とも」は、引用の格助詞「と」に、係助詞「も」の付いたものとも。
とも[接助副助終助]の意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書

どうともなれ basically expresses that he don't care if the situation goes either way (= what happens).
 

Glenn

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So チェッコは、えい、どうともなれとばかり、両腕をなげ 出してから、はいってゆきました。 means "Checko (?) came in, throwing his arms out as if to say, 'eh, what the %&#$ ever.'" Or something less vulgar.
 

Toritoribe

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Yeah, 投げやりな態度 makes sense, maybe?:)
 

eeky

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なれ is the imperative form of 成る. とも is a bit classical. It's equevalent to ても/でも in modern Japanese(in this case, にでも, as I rephrased).

大辞泉 says that this と is originally from the quotation と.


とも[接助副助終助]の意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書

どうともなれ basically expresses that he don't care if the situation goes either way (= what happens).
Thanks, I think I grasp どうともなれ; then did you mean from your previous post that ~とばかり is just short for ~といわんばかり?
 

Glenn

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Yeah, sometimes いわん is not said, and I think sometimes it's just ばかりに.
 
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