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~ば~ほど Detail.

LewiiG

先輩
27 Dec 2012
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I came across this construct recently. And kind of need to figure it out how to use it fully, as I don't 100% understand it.

First of all I got "この曲は聞けば聞くほどよくなる" Which I understand as "the more I listen to this song the better it gets."

One thing I don't really understand is the actual "聞けば聞くほど" in itself. ほど is a limit or extent, and ば ending is a conditional. How does it translate into English exactly? Or is it that it is a "set phrase" that just means "the more... the better/less/more etc. When I think of it as a set phrase, I come into problems trying to make more complicated sentences.

Like, for example. If I wanted to say "The more I do something, the more I want to do something else"

Because in the first example, how do we know that it is the song that it is being listned to more and more? Maybe it literally means:

"as for this song, if listened to an extent/many times, becomes better "

Hmm...I may have possibly answered my own misunderstandings. ~ば~ほど in actuality means "if something is done in extent/many times," but the english equivalent/translation is most of the time the "more...more" thing right?

By understanding the literal translations I feel more able to use the construct. If my thoughts are correct then I have two questions.

1. "聞けば聞くほど、この曲はよくなる" Would this be a possible natural way of saying it?

2. こういう動画は、見れば見るほど、私に日本に行きたいことをさせる Does this work as "the more I watch videos like this the more I want to go to Japan" (This video makes me/causes me to want to do the action/thing of wanting to go to Japan if/when watched in extent"... I had to think like that for a sec xD) I want to make sure the "more" idea is there. And if the sentence if even correct.

If all is well regarding the construct then I figured it out whilst writing about it, and I wish to confirm. If not, please give a better way to think about it.

よろしくお願いします
 
The pattern is the equivalent of the English one, "The more A, the more B"

I found the grammar of it a little strange at first, but the way I'd translate it is, "If I do A, the extent that I do it is how much I B."

I don't think you need the なる or させる, but maybe someone else will correct me.

I would say

この曲を聞けば聞くほど好きです。

and

こんな動画を見れば見るほど日本に行きたいです。

The misses is sleeping or I'd double check it with her ;)
 
Yes, ~ば~ほど… is a set phrase. ~ば part is sometimes omitted though.

1)
The topic covers the whole sentence. In your example この曲は聞けば聞くほどよくなる, この曲は covers BOTH 聞けば聞くほど and よくなる, i.e., it's interpreted as この曲を聞けば聞くほど、この曲はよくなる. 聞けば聞くほど、この曲はよくなる is also correct, of course.

2)
こういう動画を見れば見るほど、日本に行きたくなる

こういう動画は、見れば見るほど私を日本に行きたくさ せる has the same meaning, but it's rather awkward. こういう動画は、見れば見るほど私を日本に行きたい気 分にさせる might be barely acceptable, but sounds "translatese".


Nahadef-san, please ask your wife again which sounds more natural; 見れば見るほど行きたくなる or 見れば見るほど行きたい.;-)
 
Sorry, I remember studying that phrase and practicing it over and over years ago, but haven't used it since.
 
The pattern is the equivalent of the English one, "The more A, the more B"

I found the grammar of it a little strange at first, but the way I'd translate it is, "If I do A, the extent that I do it is how much I B."

Okay thanks! So it was after all what it was.

The topic covers the whole sentence. In your example この曲は聞けば聞くほどよくなる, この曲は covers BOTH 聞けば聞くほど and よくなる, i.e., it's interpreted as この曲を聞けば聞くほど、この曲はよくなる. 聞けば聞くほど、この曲はよくなる is also correct, of course.

Wow this is great. The use of は here was the whole reason why I thought those other unnecessary things. I see now how it works hopefully.

A few more things though:

1."この曲を聞けば聞くほど、この曲はよくなる" There is an "obvious from context" 私が here right?

2. Am I thinking correctly now?

彼はこのゲームで勝てば勝つほど怒るようになる
=
彼はこのゲームで勝つほど怒るようになる
=
彼にこのゲームで勝てば勝つほど彼は怒るようになる (I suppose a は is necessary here, and that this one is never used. Also that using を or something alone doesn't imply anything under は).
 
Sorry, I remember studying that phrase and practicing it over and over years ago, but haven't used it since.
Oh, no no. No need to apologize. I just said about the two examples in the post. There actually are some cases that なる is not needed, e.g., 聞けば聞くほど面白い or 知れば知るほど難しい.


1."この曲を聞けば聞くほど、この曲はよくなる" There is an "obvious from context" 私が here right?
Yes.

2. Am I thinking correctly now?

彼はこのゲームで勝てば勝つほど怒るようになる
=
彼はこのゲームで勝つほど怒るようになる
=
彼にこのゲームで勝てば勝つほど彼は怒るようになる (I suppose a は is necessary here, and that this one is never used. Also that using を or something alone doesn't imply anything under は).
I would use 機嫌が悪くなる instead of 怒るようになる.
In the first two examples, 彼 is interpreted as the subject of 勝つ, not 私, since the topics covers the whole sentence, as I wrote. That is NOT what you meant, isn't it?;-) It should be 負ける, when you use 彼は.

I don't think 勝てば can be omitted here. ほど has another meaning "as ~ as", so ~ば is needed when the meaning can be ambiguous.
 
I don't think 勝てば can be omitted here. ほど has another meaning "as ~ as", so ~ば is needed when the meaning can be ambiguous.
Yeah, I see how that can be interpeted differently. I was testing the extent of the omission. Thanks.

In the first two examples, 彼 is interpreted as the subject of 勝つ, not 私, since the topics covers the whole sentence, as I wrote. That is NOT what you meant, isn't it?;-) It shoud be 負ける, when you use 彼は.

I think I understand what you mean here, I thought that 彼は also covers 彼に because of the 聞く example, but that was transitive.

彼は私が彼に勝てば勝つほど機嫌が悪くなる (私が could be omitted)
彼は私に負ければ負けるほど機嫌が悪くなる (私に can not be omitted, if I want that meaning)

Are these the shortest and correct way of writing it?
 
In the first example, 彼は has nothing to do with 私が彼に勝てば勝つほど. The subject and the target of 勝つ are already mentioned, so the only function of 彼は is the subject of 機嫌が悪くなる in the sentence. Therefore the order 私が彼に勝てば勝つほど、彼は機嫌が悪くなる is more natural. 彼は、私が彼に勝てば勝つほど機嫌が悪くなる is not incorrect, though.

The second one is correct.

If you don't need to use ~ば~ほど structure, I might say 彼とゲームをしてるとき、彼は負けるにつれて機嫌が悪くなる. 彼とゲームをしてるとき can be omitted if it's obvious from the context, of course.
 
In the first example, 彼は has nothing to do with 私が彼に勝てば勝つほど. The subject and the target of 勝つ are already mentioned, so the only function of 彼は is the subject of 機嫌が悪くなる in the sentence. Therefore the order 私が彼に勝てば勝つほど、彼は機嫌が悪くなる is more natural. 彼は、私が彼に勝てば勝つほど機嫌が悪くなる is not incorrect, though.

The second one is correct.

Thanks. I think I normally would and did write 彼は in that position, but at the time I had a random OCD urge to line up the sentences with each other so I changed it :D but still, thanks, i've never really thought about the reason behind why it would go there, aside from you don't have to think all the way back to the start of the sentence if it was put in a more convinient place.

If you don't need to use ~ば~ほど structure, I might say 彼とゲームをしてるとき、彼は負けるにつれて機嫌が悪くなる. 彼とゲームをしてるとき can be omitted if it's obvious from the context, of course.

Thanks for the alternative につれて、it shall be remembered.

とりとりべさんが私に教えれば教えるほど、私の日本語力はよくなります。それで、いつも感謝しています。本当にありがとうございました🙂
(Hopefully that's right. If not, "thank you very much again Toritoribe," and I don't mind if it is not corrected, I have all the answers I came for in this thread now. Thanks again:) )
 
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