What's new

Welcome to Japan Reference (JREF) - the community for all Things Japanese.

Join Today! It is fast, simple, and FREE!

Learn Japanese with JapanesePod101.com

に after 時 necessary?

healer

後輩
Joined
13 May 2019
Messages
630
Reaction score
7
When should we say 時にor just 時 or 時には or just 時は? Is it a matter of emphasis whether we need に after 時?

Below are two examples.
子供が悪いことをした時には、謝らせます。
口の中に物が入っている時は、笑わせないでください。

By the way, I’m also trying to work out whether 入っている in the second example sentence is read as はいっている or いっている. From the particle が I think it should be the former because it is an intransitive verb otherwise を would be used. Is my reasoning or inference correct? I have also heard that there is a much higher chance that the former is used in daily usage.
 

Toritoribe

松葉解禁
Moderator
Joined
22 Feb 2008
Messages
17,189
Reaction score
3,381
It's not "時に vs. 時" or "時には vs. 時は", but actually "時に vs. 時には/時は". (時は is considered the same as 時には. に is just disappeared behind は in 時は.) 時に expresses that an event occurs/occurred/will occur in a time point, while 時には/時は is for repeated actions or when the main clause is stative, or adversative to the subordinate clause. 時 can be used for all the cases.

子供が悪いことをした時には、謝らせます。
This is a present habit.

子供が悪いことをした時に、謝らせました。
This is a one-off past event.

口の中に物が入っている時は、笑わせないでください。
This is for contrast, i.e., implying 口の中に物が入っていない時は、笑わせてもいい。.

口の中に物が入っている時に、笑わせないでください。
Sounds like food is in the speaker's mouth right now.

赤ちゃんが寝ている時は、家が静かだ。
時に can't be used here since the main clause 静かだ is a state.

By the way, I’m also trying to work out whether 入っている in the second example sentence is read as はいっている or いっている. From the particle が I think it should be the former because it is an intransitive verb otherwise を would be used. Is my reasoning or inference correct?
入っている is read いっている only in some proverbs or idiomatic expressions like 飛んで火に入る夏の虫, 虎穴に入らずんば虎子を得ず, 気に入る or 堂に入っている in modern Japanese. Even in these cases, you can't differentiate いる from はいる by checking whether it can take を or not, since いる and はいる are both intransitive. You are confusing いる with the transitive verb 入れる, by any chance? If so, the -te iru form of 入れる is 入れている, not 入っている.

By the way, はいる actually can take を, e.g. 入り口を入る, 玄関を入る. Have you never learned that some intransitive verbs, mostly the ones for moving from a place to another place, can take を? を indicates location of moving in this case. 入る belongs to this group.
e.g.
道を歩く
廊下を走る
階段を上る
橋を渡る
空を飛ぶ
大学を出る
 

healer

後輩
Joined
13 May 2019
Messages
630
Reaction score
7
口の中に物が入っている時は、笑わせないでください。
This is for contrast, i.e., implying 口の中に物が入っていない時は、笑わせてもいい。.
How could one tell whether 時は here is not for repeated action, the same as 時には? Could 時には be used for contrast too?

when the main clause is stative, or adversative to the subordinate clause. 時 can be used for all the cases.
What does it mean by stative and adversative? Does “stative” refer to a state which refers to ~ている verbs or just any event without movement? Does “adversative” refer to being adversary affected? I’m not sure what you mean by “時 can be used for all the cases” either. Please give some examples!

You are confusing いる with the transitive verb 入れる, by any chance?
You were right! I did mix up that 入る(いる) with 入れる at the time of writing the question. I was indeed aware that 入る(いる) is used only in fixed expressions and compound verbs. My memory was just faulty at the time. Sorry for wasting your time.
 

healer

後輩
Joined
13 May 2019
Messages
630
Reaction score
7
By the way, はいる actually can take を, e.g. 入り口を入る, 玄関を入る.
Thanks for reminding me and I had indeed learnt that before. I shall deal with this a bit more when I get to use a desktop. I’m using my mobile phone at the moment. I’ve found the website doesn’t work well on mobiles.
 

healer

後輩
Joined
13 May 2019
Messages
630
Reaction score
7
飛んで火に入る夏の虫, 虎穴に入らずんば虎子を得ず, 気に入る or 堂に入っている
Is there any chance that the last one should be 堂に入る meaning to become an expert or to be master at? I can't find 堂に入っている in dictionaries or from Google. I can see 堂に入っている could be derived from 堂に入る though. While 入る (いる) is only found in fixed expressions and compound verbs, is it possible that this verb is fading away? I'm not quite sure of the conjugation of the verb 入る in 虎穴に入らずんば虎子を得ず, Would you care to explain? I think 入らずんば is derived from 入る -> 入らない -> 入らず. I do not know how it gets to 入らずんば though I guess it is some sort of provisional form, ば-form. By the way, how do we choose between 入らない and 入らず as well as 得ない and 得ず?
 

Toritoribe

松葉解禁
Moderator
Joined
22 Feb 2008
Messages
17,189
Reaction score
3,381
How could one tell whether 時は here is not for repeated action, the same as 時には?
笑わせないでください is an order/a request, so it's not used for a habit/repeated action. "Please don't do ~" can't be a repeated action also in English, isn't it? (Notice it's not "I say 'Please don't do ~'". I repeatedly say "Please don't do ~" or I always think "Please don't do ~" is no problem.)

Could 時には be used for contrast too?
Yes, since 時には and 時は are the same.

Does “stative” refer to a state which refers to ~ている verbs or just any event without movement?
~ている form of punctual verbs, state verbs, potential form of verbs or adjectives, i.e., the ones that expresses a state.

Does “adversative” refer to being adversary affected?
Sorry, that's my fault. It should be "contrast" not “adversative”. 時は works as the contrastive marker like the examle 口の中に物が入っている時は.

I’m not sure what you mean by “時 can be used for all the cases” either.
時 can be used instead of both 時に and 時には/時は for all the cases where 時に, 時には or 時は is used.

Is there any chance that the last one should be 堂に入る meaning to become an expert or to be master at? I can't find 堂に入っている in dictionaries or from Google. I can see 堂に入っている could be derived from 堂に入る though. While 入る (いる) is only found in fixed expressions and compound verbs, is it possible that this verb is fading away? I'm not quite sure of the conjugation of the verb 入る in 虎穴に入らずんば虎子を得ず, Would you care to explain? I think 入らずんば is derived from 入る -> 入らない -> 入らず. I do not know how it gets to 入らずんば though I guess it is some sort of provisional form, ば-form. By the way, how do we choose between 入らない and 入らず as well as 得ない and 得ず?
Have you never seen 気に入らない, 気に入っている, 気に入っていなかった and so on? Set expressions can conjugate.

入らずんば and 得ず are both classical Japanese, equivalent to 入らなければ and 得ない in modern Japanese, respectively. Did you remember that I wrote "classical Japanese still remains in proverbs or set expressions" previously somewhere in your thread? These are one of them.
 
Top Bottom