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dhmkhkk

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Could someone please help me figure out the meaning and the grammatical function of と in this example?

どうしたの? きのう同じ服着て。
(What's wrong? Why are you wearing the same clothes as yesterday?)
Thanks! 🙂:
 

Toritoribe

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That's a particle meaning "with each other".
e.g.
~と会う/話す/戦う/結婚する/似ている/違う/等しい/同じだ/友達だ/知り合いだ

今日の服は昨日の服と同じだ = 昨日の服は今日の服と同じだ = 昨日の服と今日の服は同じだ
私は彼と会った = 彼は私と会った = 私と彼は会った
彼は彼女と結婚した = 彼女は彼と結婚した = 彼と彼女は結婚した
田中は山田と知り合いだ = 山田は田中と知り合いだ = 田中と山田は知り合いだ
 

dhmkhkk

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omg I love it when the Japanese just omit parts of the sentences which are (in my opinion) necessary for understanding of the sentence 🙂:

I think it would have been easier for me to understand if it was きのうと同じ服着て。きのうの服。 But just きのうと alone is so confusing to me. Anyway, thank you, Toritoribe. I guess I got it.))
 

Toritoribe

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That's because 昨日 is compared with 今日 there. 昨日の服と同じ今日の服 sounds a bit repetitive.
e.g.
昨日と同じ寒さ(=昨日と同じ今日の寒さ)
昨日と違う天気(=昨日と違う今日の天気)
 

dhmkhkk

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昨日の服と同じ今日の服 sounds a bit repetitive.

I do realize this would be repetitive. What I do not really understand is why the first 服 is just omitted and not substituted for の. Like in, you know:

私は黒いセーターを持っています。赤いも持っています。
 

Toritoribe

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Unlike attributives in your example, 昨日 is directly connected to 同じ by と, as I wrote 昨日と同じ今日. It's not attached to 服.
 

dhmkhkk

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Thank you. It's just that in your "repetitive" example 服 was kind of attached to 昨日:

昨日の服と同じ今日の服

Guess I should memorize 昨日と同じ like a set expression.
 

Toritoribe

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In the expression 昨日のと同じ, the pronoun の more likely represents another noun than the modified noun, for instance 昨日のと同じ服 is for 昨日のデートと同じ服, and not 昨日の服と同じ服. This is applied to almost all ~と同じ, not just to 昨日と同じ, thus, 彼と同じ学校 is far more common than 彼のと同じ学校.
 

dhmkhkk

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Hi everyone,

I'm kind of struggling with と particle here, and since I started the thread some time ago already, I'd like to post my question here.

随分と執念深い紳士のようだな

how come it's "随分"? The dictionary says that zuibun is an "adverb taking the 'to' particle". What does it mean exactly? Googling the issue didn't help much. The only thing I found was that 'to' can be used with onomatopoetic adverbs, which zuibun is not. Could you help me with that please?

Also, to make sure I haven't missed anything: と is used for these main cases:
1. To mark quotations/thoughts (と言う、と思う etc)
2. To connect nouns/noun clauses
4. Conditional (春になると、 ...)
3. with onomotopoetic adverbs (犬がワンワンと吠えている)

Is there any other important usage? I have a feeling I meet と too often and I don't always see why it is used there even though I understand the idea of the sentence...As always, thank you very much for your help :)
 

Toritoribe

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と can be attached to some adverbs, for instance ゆっくりと動く or はっきりと見える, not only onomatopoetic ones(擬音語/擬態語). These adverbs often describe the state or condition of the verb ("how it moves" or "how it's seen" in the examples above). The meaning is the same as 随分執念深い in your example.

3. with onomotopoetic adverbs (犬がワンワンと吠えている)
ワンワンと is for quotation as same as #1, not for onomatopoeia.

Is there any other important usage?
との英語・英訳 - goo辞書 英和和英
Grammatically, #2 is 並立助詞 (coordinate particle), #4 is 接続助詞 (conjunctive particle), and #1 and 3 are 格助詞 (case particle).
 

dhmkhkk

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Great link, thank you very much! I will consult it with every new と which is unclear to me.

Just to clarify: ゆっくり動く, はっきり見える would be correct as well, right? Any difference in meaning compared to the examples with と?
 

Toritoribe

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Right. The meaning is the same, just like 随分 vs. 随分と.
 
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