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と for events not controllable by the speaker

healer

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When C1 happened, the speaker discovered C2. C2 is either an event in progress or a state of affairs.
A textbook says the two examples below are wrong, in that they do not convey the intended meanings of discovery because they indicate that C2 occurred after C1.
How could one prevent them to be interpreted as events simply occurred consecutively unintentionally just like the next lot of examples?
X 窓を開けると、雨が降りました。
When I opened the window, it rained.

X 先生のオフィスへ行くと、先生はパーティーをしました。
When I went to the sensei’s office, she hosted a party.

How could one say instead for the two examples above as follows respectively?
-When I opened the window, it had rained / been raining?
-When I went to the sensei’s office, she had hosted / been hosting a party.
If the sentences are changed accordingly, then they should fit in with? the criteria of an event in progress, shouldn’t they?

C1 and C2 occurred consecutively (by accident/ unintentionally)

◯ 電車が駅に着くと、人がたくさんおりました。
When the train arrived at the station, many people got off.

◯ 今朝、図書館に行くと、木村さんに会いました。
When I went to the library this morning, I ran into Kimura-san.
 

bentenmusume

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It's the straight perfect tense verbs that are the source of the unnaturalness, I'd say.

I'm not a native speaker, so hopefully Toritoribeさん can correct me if I'm going astray here, but I'd say the following sentences would be more acceptable:

窓を開けると、激しい雨が降っておりました。
窓を開けると、外は土砂降りでした。
先生のオフィスに行くと、パーティーをやっている最中でした。
先生のオフィスに行くと、パーティー開催中でした。

Note that in all of those, the second clause suggests a state that was already in progress.

Also, out of the examples, note that 会いました is regular perfect tense, thus not suggesting a state that was already ongoing, but this is acceptable here because your meeting 木村さん did only happen after you arrived at the library, whereas in the others the state was ongoing regardless of the speaker's presence.
 

healer

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If the sentences are changed accordingly, then they should fit in with? the criteria of an event in progress, shouldn’t they?
Correction:
If the sentences are changed to be an event in progress, i.e. had been raining and had been hosting respectively then they should fit in with the criteria, shouldn’t they?

降っておりました。
Why would you use ~ておりました instead of ~ていました here?
Humble language?
Why is it necessary?
 

bentenmusume

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Why would you use ~ておりました instead of ~ていました here?
Humble language?
Why is it necessary?
Sorry, it's not "necessary" and it could just as well be 降っていました.
おりました is just more formal/written register (not "humble" when used in the -ている form).
Honestly, I have no idea why I wrote that instead of just 降っていました. I might have been reading something written in that register and unconsciously let it influence me.

Long story short: sorry for the confusion. There is no difference between 降っていました and 降っておりました except register.
 

healer

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By the way, do you think it’s possible to have the following for the meaning of having been doing something, i.e. an event in progress. I understand ~てきた refers to event that has been happening in the past until now.
-窓を開けると、雨が降ってきました。
-先生のオフィスへ行くと、先生はパーティーをしてきました。

How could one prevent them to be interpreted as events simply occurred consecutively unintentionally
Would you have any comment on this?
 
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Toritoribe

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By the way, do you think it’s possible to have the following for the meaning of having been doing something, i.e. an event in progress. I understand ~てきた refers to event that has been happening in the past until now.
-窓を開けると、雨が降ってきました。
-先生のオフィスへ行くと、先生はパーティーをしてきました。
No. The former means "it started raining". ~てくる also means "to do an action towards the speaker/the viewpoint" (e.g. 車が近付いてくる, 彼女が部屋に入ってきた), and "to start doing" as a variation of it.

The latter doesn't make sense. It's OK just パーティーをしていました for "event that has been happening in the past until now".

How could one prevent them to be interpreted as events simply occurred consecutively unintentionally just like the next lot of examples?
To change the main clause to "either an event in progress or a state of affairs", as in the textbook.

Correction:
If the sentences are changed to be an event in progress, i.e. had been raining and had been hosting respectively then they should fit in with the criteria, shouldn’t they?
Yes, as in our (jt-san's and my) examples.
 

healer

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窓を開けると、雨が降りました。
When I opened the window, it rained.

先生のオフィスへ行くと、先生はパーティーをしました。
When I went to the sensei’s office, she hosted a party.
While the above are wrong for illustrating the grammar points thereof, could they be grammatically correct and alright just for the meaning of the stated translation?
Perhaps I guess I'm asking if they fit the criteria of "C1 and C2 occurred consecutively (by accident/ unintentionally)".
 

Toritoribe

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Those sentences sound awkward since they don't fit the situation that is expressed by と. You need to use expressions that describe "C1 and C2 occurred consecutively (by accident/ unintentionally)" more clearly.
e.g.
窓を開けると、雨が降り出しました。
先生のオフィスへ行くと、先生はパーティーを始めました。
 

healer

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Please excuse my stupidity, Toritoribe-san!

A textbook says the two examples below are wrong, in that they do not convey the intended meanings of discovery because they indicate that C2 occurred after C1.
The book already said that the two sentences indicate that C2 occurred after C1.
And I compare these two sentences and I found they're quite comparable to the examples set under C1 and C2 occurred consecutively (by accident/ unintentionally). Please see below.
I see you have changed the verbs to emphasize the beginning of the event, 降り出す and 始める. Certainly the events are not controllable by the speaker. You say they sound awkward. I don't quite follow here. Thanks for your kind attention. If it is too much to explain we could leave it later. Perhaps it would dawn on me in the near future. Thanks again!

◯ 電車が駅に着くと、人がたくさんおりました。
When the train arrived at the station, many people got off.

◯ 今朝、図書館に行くと、木村さんに会いました。
When I went to the library this morning, I ran into Kimura-san.
 

Toritoribe

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What is the exact explanation about those example sentences in your textbook?
 

healer

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They do not convey the intended meanings of discovery because they indicate that C2 occurred after C1.
Please see the left bottom corner of the attached.
IMG_1852.JPG

Fair enough, they don't fit in with the criteria for discovery. As far as I can see with my limited grammar knowledge they're still grammatically alright for the purpose of the stated translation thereon. That's what I'm trying to ask you if I can simply say the same sentences for the stated meaning there.
Thank you again for your tolerance.
 

Toritoribe

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The point is what "phase/aspect" of the action the verb expresses. (電車を)降りました and (人に)会いました can refer to the starting point of the action, while (雨が)降りました and (パーティーを)しました are usually for the whole action (from the starting to ending), not the starting point. That's why those two examples sound awkward.

By the way, (電車を)おりる "to get off" is usually written in kanji 降りる, as I wrote above. In fact, I initially thought that 人がたくさんおりました meant "there were many people" until reading the English translation in your initial post. I suspect that this might be the reason why jt_-san wrote 雨が降っておりました。.
 

healer

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おりる "to get off" is usually written in kanji 降りる
The actual example in the book doesn't come with Kanji for
おりました. In fact I usually change them into kanji whenever the dictionary comes up with a selection as I type on the keyboard. I think I overlooked it this time.

The point is what "phase/aspect" of the action the verb expresses.
Are you saying
と constuctions are for those with the starting point of the action or for the whole action?
 

Toritoribe

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It's the starting point for "C2 occurred after C1".
 
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