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と思う versus と思っている

healer

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I understand that と思う is used for 1st and 2nd person whereas と思っている is used for 3rd person.

Does と思っている ever carry the sense of being present continuous or being in a state?

I have seen と思う used for 2nd person in questions only. Do we use と思う for 2nd person in affirmative and negative statements as well?
 

healer

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I suppose we use と思っている where the thinking still remains in the same state for an extended period of time whereas と思う is a one-off short process. Can't the third person use と思う?
 

Toritoribe

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The following threads might be somewhat helpful.

 

healer

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Thanks for the reference given. I shall go through them one by one.
 

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いえ: 言え
と: the quotation particle
幾ら
Re: 幾ら親戚 とはいえ
Is it possible that the above words have the following meaning to have this fragment of sentence translated as "even though we may be relatives"?
幾ら: even; even if
とはいえ: though; although; be that as it may; nonetheless

The author and his/her friend actually had a coversation. S/He thinks that's good.
筆者は友人と話ができて良かったと思っていますか is supposed to be a question, isn't it?

Your interpretation is correct. The subject of 思っている is 筆者.
What could prevent と思っていますか to be interpreted as "Am I thinking" or even "Are you thinking" or "Have you been thinking" instead of "Is s/he thinking"?
Does one have to add 私は or あなたは in the beginning of the sentence to convey such idea?

Yeah, if it's 筆者は友人と話ができて良かったと思いますか, the subject is the reader, i.e., "you".:)
Perhaps in Japanese culture, one never says "Do I think" but "Do you think" or "Does s/he think" or "Do they think". Please comment.
And "Do you think" is always 思いますか.
The subject of ~と思います is ALWAYS first person/the speaker in a declarative sentence. Similarly, in an interrogative sentence, the subject of ~と思いますか is ALWAYS second person, i.e., "you".
This partly corroborate the above statement of mine.
Are you referring to an affirmative statement where you said "a declarative sentence" above?
Please comment on "Do I think".

話がしたいと思っています
Is ~たいと思っています very common in Japanese conversations? I just want to ascertain whether "thinking of wanting" is one of common ways of saying one's wish or intention in Japanese language.

conclusion (the subject of 思う/思っている)
I can't see any example of an affirmative statement of "You think" or "You are thinking".
Is that not part of Japanese culture?
Perhaps Japanese people convey the meaning using different words. Please comment!

I have read in a textbook saying if the content of the utterance is directly relevant to the current discourse, ~と言っている is used giving the following example though the statement could've been made in the past on a separate occasion.
ミラーさんも誘いましょう。
ええ、でも、ミラーさんは最近忙しいと言っていますよ。
However in another part of the same textbook I saw the following dialogue.
そう言えば、私はこの間、友達に日本の音楽のCDをもらったんですが、その話をしたら、ミラーさんも聞きたいと言っていました。じゃあ、私はJポップのCDにします。
 
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Toritoribe

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What you did is necroposting, which is against our forum rules. It's recommended to start a new tread and link to the old thread you want to refer to.

Re: 幾ら親戚 とはいえ
Is it possible that the above words have the following meaning to have this fragment of sentence translated as "even though we may be relatives"?
Yes, but it's more likely "even though we are relatives".

筆者は友人と話ができて良かったと思っていますか is supposed to be a question, isn't it?
That's a question to the readers. I wrote a fact i.e., the answer.

What could prevent と思っていますか to be interpreted as "Am I thinking" or even "Are you thinking" or "Have you been thinking" instead of "Is s/he thinking"?
筆者は shows that the subject of 思っていますか is the writer. It can't have the meaning you listed.

Does one have to add 私は or あなたは in the beginning of the sentence to convey such idea?
私は~と思っていますか is non-sense since you are asking about your thoughts/feelings to the addressee. You must know it far more clearly than other people.

と思っていると思いますか is used for あなたは, as I already wrote.

Perhaps in Japanese culture, one never says "Do I think" but "Do you think" or "Does s/he think" or "Do they think". Please comment.
And "Do you think" is always 思いますか.
Your question is unclear. 思っています can be translated "to think", not "to be thinking".
It seems to me that this is the key of your confusion. 知っている or わかっている don't (at least not always) mean "to be knowing/understanding" right? Words or grammatical expressions are not corresponding in perfect 1-to-1 manner between different languages, as bentenmusume-san pointed out in another thread.

Also, you often ask questions I already answered. Read all the threads I linked above thoroughly and carefully, and then ask your questions, please?
 

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Reference to above:
日本に働きたいですか。
はい、いつか働きたいと思います。いつか日本に住みたいと思いますから。
8. 日本に住みたいですか。
ええ、いつか住みたいと思います。すばらしい国だと思いますから。

思います can be correct in the first sentence of the answer since it can be interpreted that the speaker exresses thier strong will
~と思っています also can be used when the speaker emphasizes thier opinion
Would you mind to explain the above two statements? They seem to be contradicting each other.
Perhaps they both are correct where the former for the first person while the latter for the third person. But then the latter can also be used for the first person too if I'm not mistaken.
Are you saying the latter should be used in the first sentence too?
Please comment!

it should be 思っています in the second sentence. 思います is the future tense here.
I can see 思っています is a better option here but what if the speaker has the idea only for a short time, right at the time of speaking. That is he hasn't been thinking about it for long. Can 思います be used? I understand 思います is a non-past form, so it is also a present form too.

先方がお呼びだよ。
This is an honorific form, the same as お呼びになった, isn't it? But less honorific than the latter?

Lastly, could I ask if 欲しがる and たがる and any adjective + がる can be used in a question? I haven't seen any of them in a question yet.
I've been told these are all used for the third person only. So definitely adjective + がる cannot be used for the second person.
For example: You look sad.
Does one have to say something like the first one below not the second one?
あなたは悲しそう。
あなたは悲しがる。
 
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bentenmusume

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Toritoribe said:
Words or grammatical expressions are not corresponding in perfect 1-to-1 manner between different languages, as bentenmusume-san pointed out in another thread.
Toritoribe-san got to your post before me, but this is the key here. You're introducing a lot of unnecessary confusion by literally translating Japanese expressions into English and then framing questions as "do Japanese people say (or not say) [English expression]?"

To state the obvious (and I'm not doing it to be condescending or rude), Japanese people speaking Japanese do not think in terms of what their words would translate to in English. To use one of your examples, ~たいと思います is a very natural way of expressing a desire in Japanese. The ~と思います serves to "soften" the statement, similar (but not identical) to the difference between "I want to" and "I'd like to" in English.

Thinking of this in terms like "Do Japanese people talk about 'thinking of wanting'?" is pointless. "I think I want" is also a possible expression in English, but it sounds very confused/wishy-washy. The Japanese ~たいと思います has no such nuance. You're always going to remain confused by the Japanese language unless you understand and accept the language in its own terms instead of filtering everything through an English lens.

Some of your other questions are confusing, too. I'm not sure I've ever asked another person what I think, or told them flat out what they are thinking in English, so I'm not sure why it surprises you that in Japanese (a context-based language that often drops subjects) the sentences given would be interpreted the way they are (as opposed to asking "Do I think X?", or presuming to tell them "You're thinking X.")
 

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〇日本の会社で働こうと思います。*1
×あなたは日本の会社で働こうと思います。
〇あなたは日本の会社で働こうと思いますか。*2
×彼は日本の会社で働こうと思います。
×彼は日本の会社で働こうと思いますか。

〇日本の会社で働くつもりです。
×あなたは日本の会社で働くつもりです。
〇あなたは日本の会社で働くつもりですか。*2
〇彼は日本の会社で働くつもりです。
〇彼は日本の会社で働くつもりですか。

〇日本の会社で働こうと思っています。*1
×あなたは日本の会社で働こうと思っています。
〇あなたは日本の会社で働こうと思っていますか。*2
〇彼は日本の会社で働こうと思っています。
〇彼は日本の会社で働こうと思っていますか。
Again there is no example of affirmative statement for the second person using と思います or と思っています.
It looks like either it is inappropriate for someone says what the addressee thinks or is thinking or other expressions are used for the same purpose.

The question ~(よ)うと思っていますか is a usual yes-no question, but ~(よ)うと思いますか often implies the questioner's blame (such like Do you really think so?
This is something probably I'll never figure it out myself. It's good to be told. Thanks Toritoribe-san.
 
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healer

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when the subject of 思っています is the speaker, 思っています emphasizes the speaker's opinion, or it shows that the speaker has been thinking it.
Are you suggesting 思っています for the third person hasn't got the connotation of emphasis on the third person's thinking?

conclusion (the subject of 思う/思っている)
I remember I have only seen 思っている not 思う used for the third questions.
Does the usage of 思っている here have any connotation of emphasis on anything?
Perhaps it is simply a rule set specifically for the third person where there is no extra connotation.
Please comment!
 
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bentenmusume

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Again there is no example of affirmative statement for the second person using と思います or と思っています.
It looks like either it is inappropriate for someone says what the addressee thinks or is thinking or other expressions are used for the same purpose.
I alluded to this in the other thread, but I still don't know what you're getting at here. It's weird in English, too...isn't it?

When was the last time you just flat-out told someone "You think X" or "You want to do Y"?
It's not that it's impossible to talk about other people's thoughts or desires, but there has to be an appropriate context.

For example, imagine a girl yelling at her boyfriend;
「絶対私が悪いと思ってるんでしょ?」
This might best rendered in English as "I bet you think this is my fault, don't you!?"

Or a parent admonishing their college-age kid who's always slacking off instead of studying Japanese:
「日本で働たいんじゃなかったの?」
("Didn't you want to work in Japan?" or "I thought you wanted to work in Japan (because you're not going to get it done that way)!")

Also, Toritoribe-san mentioned this in the other thread, but you really need to stop thinking about the difference between と思います and と思っています as corresponding exactly to the difference between the English "think" versus "thinking". It's not quite that simple, and you really need to think of the Japanese expressions in their own terms and understand them for what they are.
 

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necroposting
I'm very sorry Toritoribe-san. I didn't know I was doing something wrong. I had supposed it would be hard for anyone jumping among threads to read the referenced material. In fact I prefer them all in one place like what you have done for me. Thanks again!

You're introducing a lot of unnecessary confusion by literally translating Japanese expressions into English and then framing questions as "do Japanese people say (or not say) [English expression]?"
Thanks for the advice and reminder. In fact I'm doing the other way round. I can't really think adequately in Japanese yet. I'm trying to translate everything I think in English into Japanese. Then I translate it back into English. If the final English version is not the same as the initial English version, that means something has gone wrong. I'm not trying to map everything in Japanese into English. I'm trying to cover all the bases so that I can express everything in Japanese for all the thinking I'm doing in English. I might not have said "You said ..." or "You want ..." I just wish to cover all possible scenarios. When the situation arise I hope I'm ready. I've seen so many examples of ~たいと思います in sentences I was just asking if they're common. I had learnt that ~と思います is often used to soften the assertion of a statement. At the time I asked it didn't occur to me that ~たい statement is strong enough needed to be softened.
 
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bentenmusume

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Thanks for the response and the clarification.

I can certainly understand the frustration with not being able to "think in Japanese" yet. At the same time, your approach is potentially problematic because often the most natural way to express something in Japanese is widely different from how you might express something in English. If your starting point is always English, very common and simple Japanese expressions may not occur to you because they don't correspond to the way the same thing would be said in English. Thus, when you encounter them, they will feel strange and alien to you, when in fact they're very common in the context of the Japanese language itself.

This is why the vast majority of textbooks (really, almost all of them) focus at first on teaching and drilling basic Japanese sentence structure and patterns, which the student then learns to apply in a variety of situations. More varied production and learning to express oneself on a variety of topics with less overt structure and restriction is reserved for after the student has internalized enough Japanese that they are able to step out of the box and put what they've learned into practice. You'd actually be surprised at how much you can "think in Japanese" if guided correctly in controlled conversations. (This is the Jorden method, used in the book Japanese: the Spoken Language, and I would argue that it has its merits.)

I think this is what sometimes strikes me as a bit off about your approach. You seem to be prioritizing output (expressing yourself and figuring out everything you "can" and "can't" say) above input (comprehension, internalization and accumulation of knowledge about what people actually do say in Japanese). If you don't feel the standard textbook approach works for you, that's fine. But I can't help but feel that you'd be better off worrying less about being able to put all your English thoughts into Japanese (especially at this relatively early stage), and focusing more on internalizing basic sentence structure and taking in the language as it is. (I realize you're doing this to some degree; it just seems at times that you're directing your efforts in a potentially inefficient way).
 

healer

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you're directing your efforts in a potentially inefficient way
You could be right. I would try to correct or improve if I know where it goes wrong.

I wouldn’t say I’m frustrated at being unable to think adequately in Japanese. I’m aware how little I can do. I just focus and plod along. I do understand and accept how part of a foreign language might look and sound unusual but it is in fact very natural to the natives.

I read in a textbook that ~と思っている is used for the third person while ~と思う for the first person and the second person. I’m not sure if they’re identical in every respect except in terms of persons. I didn’t mean not to accept any point raised in the textbook. I just try to understand better and to be sure or in case I miss something. Toritoribe-san compared it with 知っている or わかっている. However I understand these two don’t behave like 思う where the first person and the third person have different forms. Toritoribe-san often thinks I asked what he had already said. Though once in a blue moon I could have, more often than not I asked with a different combination or scenario or to verify some presumed or unstated situation.
 

bentenmusume

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However I understand these two don’t behave like 思う where the first person and the third person have different forms.
You're thinking about this the wrong way. It's not that "the first and third person have different forms". In fact, I'm quite certain Toritoribe-san has already pointed out how both ~たいと思う and ~たいと思っている can both be used in the first person, with different connotations (the former gives the sense that it's a thought that formed now, while the latter has the nuance that it's something the speaker has been thinking about for a while).

Rather, it's the fact that because of the underlying connotations of the two forms, the ~たいと思う form is inappropriate when used to refer to the thoughts of a third person. Much like (as you know) how in Japanese you don't just outright state others' emotions like 彼女は寂しいです, using the ~たいと思う form regarding the thoughts of a third person would almost sound like you're inside their brain, privy to the exact moment when the thought formed. But you're not. You're only able to observe a state from a detached vantage point, so the ~たいと思っている form fits. Just like 寂しがっている or whatever isn't just "the third-person form of 寂しい". It's a separate construction with its own meaning (putting on an outward appearance of being lonely) that is more appropriate for talking about a third-person because of the meaning and nuance it carries.

Likewise, for another example, when you ask someone (○○について)どう思いますか? you're not using 思いますか because it's "the second-person form of 思う", you're using it because you're asking for their thoughts in that moment regarding a question you've just posed to them.

Tl;dr: Try to understand and internalize the underlying nuances of the Japanese constructions and use that to guide your understanding, rather than trying to find a way to map them onto concepts that exist in English. While it is possible to explain the nuances of Japanese grammar in English, as Toritoribe-san often does (and I try to do as well, though in a far inferior and more infrequent fashion), it's rarely the case that a Japanese construction can be just be neatly glossed and categorized with an English equivalent.

(edited for clarity)
 
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healer

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you're not using 思いますか because it's "the second-person form of 思う", you're using it because you're asking for their thoughts in that moment regarding a question you've just posed to them.
Thanks! This is a great explanation of using 思う for asking a second person. I wish I had heard of it earlier. By the same token I suppose I could say 思っている if I ask a second person what s/he has been thinking.

It's not that "the first and third person have different forms".
I referred to them as two different forms because I understand the first person can have two different forms with two different connotations as Toritoribe-san had explained. What I didn’t understand at the time was why the third person can have only one form that implies s/he has been entertaining the thought for a while. Though I might still not fully understand after your explanation the way how Japanese people think I’m leaving it at this so long as I know for sure I can only use 思っている for the third person.

I appreciate all your effort. Thanks again!
 

bentenmusume

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I'm glad my explanation was at least somewhat helpful. I would advise against thinking of it as "how the Japanese people think" and instead thinking of it as "how the Japanese language works."

English requires a subject in every sentence. Everytime you talk about yourself you have to use first-person pronouns to be grammatically correct. Imagine a Japanese person thinking "I don't understand why American/British/Australian people always have to say I, I, I, me, me, me! It sounds so self-centered!"

Sometimes these things that seem unusual or foreign to you are just artifacts of how a different language functions. The sooner you can just accept and understand it on your own terms, the more progress you'll make.
 

healer

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necroposting
Could Toritoribe-san advise on how one should do in order not to be regarded as necroposting?
Does it mean one can no longer say or ask further on one's own or other's thread even though the intended information or questions are on the same subject?
When is it or after how long a thread is considered closed?
Thanks!
 

Toritoribe

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FORUM RULES
GENERAL POSTING RULES
VI. Duplicate posts, bumping and necroposting
Do not post to threads that have not been updated for many years, unless your post is relevant to this particular thread. Rather start a new thread and link to the old thread you want to refer to.


For instance, you asked about 開いてあります in this post, and you must find the thread by chance in another thread I linked in your thread when answering your question about "知る vs. 分かる". It's not a question about "知る vs. 分かる", and the thread was made in this year, so I think it would be reasonable that you asked it in that thread, not in your original thread.
 

healer

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Thanks Toritoribe-san. I will try my best to follow the rules. I would rather overdo it than underdo it in order not to get myself into trouble.
 
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