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ではどうしろというのだ

zuotengdazuo

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「で、ではどうしろというのだ!もう臨界状態なのだぞ!」

Hi. I know this というのだ is an exclamation marker. But can I think this というのだ literally means “you say what to do” or “you tell me what to do”?

Thank you.
 

zuotengdazuo

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『ーー君の説明だけでは、信憑性が足りなっかたのだよ。何しろ自己蘇生能力に……精霊の力を吸収する能力というんだ。にわかには信じられん』

Hi. I think the underlined part in this example means the same as the one in op, except that the former is past tense (namely, “you said XX” or “you told us XX”), right?
 

Toritoribe

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can I think this というのだ literally means “you say what to do” or “you tell me what to do”?
No. 言うのだ works as an imperative form, i.e., 言え, and どうしろと言え doesn't make sense.

I think the underlined part in this example means the same as the one in op
The context is needed to interpret it correctly, but it doesn't seem so to me.
 

zuotengdazuo

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Thank you.
No. 言うのだ works as an imperative form, i.e., 言え, and どうしろと言え doesn't make sense.
So the というのだ in the first example is just an exclamation marker without any meaning, right?
The context is needed to interpret it correctly, but it doesn't seem so to me.
The context is as follows:
Five members, including 琴里, were attending a meeting. 琴里 had just finished briefing the other four members on his brother 士道’s supernatural power (自己蘇生能力に……精霊の力を吸収する能力), which had just been employed in a mission where 士道 dated the 精霊 (十香) and absorbed her power by kissing her. But they didn’t seem to believe her.

Is this useful?
 

Toritoribe

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So the というのだ in the first example is just an exclamation marker without any meaning, right?
I don't think どうしろというのだ is the same as どうしろ!. どうしろ has the same meaning, but it's just an omission of いうのだ after all. どうしろというのだ means "What would you have me do?", whereas just どうしろ doesn't make sense.

The context is as follows:
Five members, including 琴里, were attending a meeting. 琴里 had just finished briefing the other four members on his brother 士道’s supernatural power (自己蘇生能力に……精霊の力を吸収する能力), which had just been employed in a mission where 士道 dated the 精霊 (十香) and absorbed her power by kissing her. But they didn’t seem to believe her.
I would say it's simply と言うんだ (ん is the explanatory の/ん); "you said ~".
 

zuotengdazuo

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Thanks again.
I don't think どうしろというのだ is the same as どうしろ!. どうしろ has the same meaning, but it's just an omission of いうのだ after all. どうしろというのだ means "What would you have me do?", whereas just どうしろ doesn't make sense.
Yes, I know we can’t omit this というのだ. But does this というのだ itself have any meaning?
And is the というのだ the same usage as the following example?
「一体春休みに何があったっていうんだ!あの鳶一と仲良くお話しするだけじゃ飽きたらず、女と昼飯約束だと!?一緒に魔法使いを目指すって誓い合ったじゃねえか!」
I would say it's simply と言うんだ (ん is the explanatory の/ん); "you said ~".
勉強になりました!But if the meaning is “you said ...”, why don’t we say といったのだ?
 

Toritoribe

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You are confusing different kinds of というのだ/っていうんだ. The one you said you know it's an exclamation marker is like the followings.

分かってるっていうんだ。
いつ来るっていうんだ。
早く来いっていうんだ。

In this case, the clause preceding と/って is the speaker's words (including question or imperative), and the subject of 言う is the speaker. Indeed っていうんだ can be omitted without changing the meaning here.

分かってる!
いつ来る!?
早く来い!

一体春休みに何があったっていうんだ! is also this structure, so 一体春休みに何があった!? has the same meaning (一体春休みに何があったんだ is more natural, though).


On the other hand, in どうしろというのだ in the thread title, the clause preceding と, i.e., どうしろ is the contents of the addressee's words (request/order), and the subject of 言う is the addressee. This is actually a rhetorical question, so the actual meaning is どうにもできない/どうしようもない. When there is no interrogative in the clause preceding と, というのか is used.

何を食べろというんだ(=何も食べられない/食べるものがない)
どこに行けというんだ(=どこにも行けない/行くところがない)
これを食べろというのか(=これは食べられない)
あそこに行けというのか(=あそこには行けない)

In this meaning, というのだ/か can't be omitted.

There also are other usages of というのだ, and the meaning/nuance can be different depending on the context or intonation. You need to keep in mind that it's not that simple.

if the meaning is “you said ...”, why don’t we say といったのだ?
It's the same reason as why 信じられん can be used there instead of 信じられなかった. It's not uncommon to use the present form for the past event in Japanese. You must have already come across so many examples, I believe.
 

zuotengdazuo

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Thank you for the detailed explanation. I do realize this というの is a complex expression.
 

zuotengdazuo

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Hi. I have come across these three 〜というのだs. I think the first is a rhetorical question (the part before というのだ is the contents of the addressee's words) while the other two are real questions and the というのだ can be omitted. Right?
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B0060E77-8924-4951-8902-5C8B0730A9E1.png
C474B7EC-A161-4C96-81BD-66B21770A7EE.jpeg

By the way, is there any example where どうしろというのだ is a real question?
 

Toritoribe

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I think the first is a rhetorical question (the part before というのだ is the contents of the addressee's words) while the other two are real questions and the というのだ can be omitted. Right?
Right.

By the way, is there any example where どうしろというのだ is a real question?
Can you imagine an imperative "Do what!" instead of "Do this!" or "Do that!"? (I mean "what" as an interrogative here, and not a relative pronoun like "what you like", of course.)
 

zuotengdazuo

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Thank you. So どうしろというのだ is always a rhetorical question.
 

Toritoribe

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As fa as というのだ, most likely yes. Other forms, for instance どうしろというのだろう can be a question, though (the subject of する is often someone else in this example).

Incidentally, as for それがどうしたってんだよ in the second example, I meant that it's a question in the same sense as "So what?" or "What's the problem?". Thus, it can be also said that it's actually not a question.
 

zuotengdazuo

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一体春休みに何があったっていうんだ! is also this structure, so 一体春休みに何があった!? has the same meaning (一体春休みに何があったんだ is more natural, though).
Hi. Can I ask about another example of というの?
「……ふん。それで、一体何の用だっていうの?」
Context: the sentence is said by 琴里. 真那 leaves a note on the window of 琴里’s room, offering to meet 琴里 on the top of an abandoned building. And 琴里 comes to meet 真那 as arranged.
Is the underlined part the same as っていうのか? And is the underlined part the same usage as 一体春休みに何があったっていうんだ!except that this っていうの is a question marker instead of an exclamation marker?
If so, we can omit the っていうの without changing the meaning.
Am I on the right track?
Thank you.

Edit: I already know we can omit というのだ when it is used in a real question. But I’m not sure about というのか.
 
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zuotengdazuo

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「へえ、それで、私が妹失格だったらどうするっていうの?」
Hi. Just another example. This sentence is said by 琴里 to 真那. I think this というの is also というのか and is the same usage as the above example (「……ふん。それで、一体何の用だっていうの?」). Right?
 

Toritoribe

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Is the underlined part the same as っていうのか?
No. The speaker doesn't confirm it, like "Are you saying 一体何の用, right?".

I think this というの is also というのか and is the same usage as the above example (「……ふん。それで、一体何の用だっていうの?」). Right?
No, because of the same reason as above.
 

zuotengdazuo

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No. The speaker doesn't confirm it, like "Are you saying 一体何の用, right?".


No, because of the same reason as above.
Thank you, toritoribe-san. So the two っていうのs in both examples are just というのだs? Like じゃあ何だってんだ?
 

Toritoribe

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If you are referring to じゃあ何だってんだ in the post #9 in this thread, yes. (Notice that じゃあ何だってんだ can have different meanings depending on the context.)
 

zuotengdazuo

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1. 「これから口說き落とそうって相手に、銃を突きつけながら喋れっていうの?」
2. 「冗談じゃないわ。DEMみたいな悪徳企業に士道を預けろっていうの?」
3. 一人どこへ歩けと言うの

Hi. Could check my understanding of the three sentences?
I think the first sentence is the same as 「これから口說き落とそうって相手に、銃を突きつけながら喋れというの?」, which means “Are you telling (言う) me to point a gun at the person you want to persuade?”.
The second is the same as 「冗談じゃないわ。DEMみたいな悪徳企業に士道を預けろというの?」, which means “Are you telling (言う) me to hand over 士道 to a dishonest company like DEM?”.
But neither sentence 1 or 2 can be ... というのだ.
However, sentence 3 can be either 一人どこへ歩けと言うの or 一人どこへ歩けと言うのだ.
一人どこへ歩けと言うの
=一人どこへ歩けと言うの
=一人どこへ歩けと言うの

=where are you telling me I should go, all alone?
Thank you.
 

Toritoribe

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But neither sentence 1 or 2 can be ... というのだ.
Yes, as I already wrote.
When there is no interrogative in the clause preceding と, というのか is used.
Indeed, the meanings of いうの and いうのか/いうのだ are the same in those examples, but the nuances or usages of these expressions are different. いうのか and いうのだ are mostly used by male and has a strong nuance (e.g. connoting anger), while those three examples are all female speech. So, it can't be said that いうの and いうのか/いうのだ are interchangeable. In fact, 冗談じゃないわ。DEMみたいな悪徳企業に士道を預けろというのか? sounds rather odd.
 

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