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ても仕方ない / ばっかりでもない

raikado

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Hello,

1) I have a problem in understanding the logic of the conversation in the bottom right panel:View image: ? ???? 13 074

Firstly, the girl says: "Should we be attending classes? We don't have time!" Then the boy responds with "The persons I need to investigate are also attending classes." Is it correct until now?

And then he says こっちだけ動いても仕方ない。At first I thought he is saying "It can't be helped but to move around only here" which also fits the context. Also, this is how ~仕方がない seems to translate. But then I searched ても仕方ない and I found at least two "blogs" that were saying that it translates as "it is no use to...", "doing that is in vain", etc. But now the sentence doesn't make sense anymore ("It is no use to move around only here").

2) ふん・・・ゲームじゃアイドルと付き合うなんてグッドイベントだが・・・現実じゃいいことばっかりでもないな・・・

Normally, ばっかりではない translates as "it's not only....". Does でも denies more strongly therefore creating something like "it's far from only good things", or "it's anything but good things"? I'm asking because I feel that "it's not even only good things" doesn't convey the same feeling as the other translations.
 

Mike Cash

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ても仕方ない / ばっかりでもない

Without even looking at the picture....the cause of your confusion regarding こっち is that you interpret it as "here" instead of "us".

For it to be "here" it would have to be こっちを, not こっちが

Never underestimate the importance of particles.....even the omitted ones!
 

raikado

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I see. I was actually confusing it with こっちに. Doesn't こっちを動く mean to "move from here"? This would fit well with "it is no use to..."

Then again, the meaning becomes quite weird. "It's no use if we are the only ones moving." . Does he mean that since he cannot meet the other girls during classes (the girls cannot move around), he might as well attend them?
 

Mike Cash

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He's investigating them by tailing them. It is pointless for him to try to tail somebody by moving around in places where you already know the target isn't there.

It would be like losing your keys in the garage and your friends suggesting you look for them in the kitchen.

Always give weight to common sense and situational clues when you hit problems like this; it will help you see your way through grammar/vocabulary misunderstandings.
 

Toritoribe

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1)
こっち is the subject of 動く; こっちだけ動いても仕方ない "It is no use that only our side moves/acts/performs an action(= to investigate them, as Mike-san interpreted)".

2)
When used with affirmative, でもない and ではない have different meanings, as in そうではない vs そうでもない. However, "negative + でもない" is almost the same as ではない in meaning (e.g. わからないでもない vs わからないではない). ばっかり persforms as a partial negation, so いいことばっかりでもない and いいことばっかりではない are almost the same.
 
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Somebody seems to be reading Conan...also, are you sure it's legal to kinda just screenshot that thing and paste it here? Yet again, it's for analysis purposes, so...
 

abhishek

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Somebody seems to be reading Conan...also, are you sure it's legal to kinda just screenshot that thing and paste it here? Yet again, it's for analysis purposes, so...


Here's what actually written in the Copyright Act :

The "fair use doctrine", as defined by the Copyright Act of 1976, permits the copying and distribution without permission
of the copyright holder based on four non-exclusive factors. They are as follows:
1. the purpose and character of the use;
2. the nature of the copyrighted work;
3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
 

raikado

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He's investigating them by tailing them. It is pointless for him to try to tail somebody by moving around in places where you already know the target isn't there.

It would be like losing your keys in the garage and your friends suggesting you look for them in the kitchen.

Always give weight to common sense and situational clues when you hit problems like this; it will help you see your way through grammar/vocabulary misunderstandings.

Thank you! I was thinking about the same situation, but it just seems that I explained myself poorly.

2)
When used with affirmative, でもない and ではない have different meanings, as in そうではない vs そうでもない. However, "negative + でもない" is almost the same as ではない in meaning (e.g. わからないでもない vs わからないではない). ばっかり persforms as a partial negation, so いいことばっかりでもない and いいことばっかりではない are almost the same.

I remember reading somewhere that でもない is usually more vague in denying ("is not entirely..."), but it can also be used to deny more strongly. This was regarding わけでもない but I just assumed that it can deny more strongly without the use of わけ. Is it true? And how do you usually tell the difference?
 

Toritoribe

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The explanation you read is about も as "too/also", i.e., when listing examples shuch like ~わけでは/もないし、…わけでもない, isn't it?
 

raikado

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It was an explanation regarding the difference between わけではない and わけでもない. I don't think it's that も. To me it looks the same as そうではない vs そうでもない.

Here's what I saved at that time:

The English translation for わけではない and わけでもない could be the same but there is a slight nuance difference.
I am not sure if I can answer this in the comment section but,

1) わけではない denies stronger than わけでもない

A) そういうわけではない That is not the reason / That is not the case /
B) そういうわけでもない Not exactly

わけでもない sounds more vague and it implies that could be a part of the reason.

2) However there are cases わけでもない emphasizes more than わけではない like “even”

C) 先生になるわけではない (It doesn’t mean (this person) will become a teacher.)
D) 先生になるわけでもない ((This person) won’t become “even” a teacher)
 

Toritoribe

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That's exactly what I meant. It's just a variation of the ordinary でもない. This でも more likely just shows an example, not "even", even in the example sentence D. (This も is from "too/also", by the way.)

でも
[係助]《断定の助動詞「だ」の連用形+係助詞「も」から》名詞または名詞に準じる語、助詞に付く。
(not this meaning)1 物事の一部分を挙げて、他の場合はまして、ということを類推させる意を表す。…でさえ。「子供―できる」「昼前―気温が三〇度ある」
-----------------------
(but this one)3 物事をはっきりと言わず、一例として挙げる意を表す。「けが―したら大変だ」「兄に―相談するか」
でも[接助係助]の意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書

わけ is not the key, of course.
先生になるわけでもないのに、なんで教育実習取ったの?
先生でもないのに、上から目線で言うなよ!
 

raikado

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For the first time I think I will actually give up on trying to understand this logically. When I read the sentence for the first time I do "feel" that sense of "saying it as an example" that でも gives off, but when I try to analyse it with the definition it becomes really confusing. It also helps to make a pause after でも, before reading ない, I don't know why.

As usual, thanks!
 

Toritoribe

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The translation "or something/anything" makes more sense, maybe? Unlike では, which specifies the example, でも gives this nuance.

You're not going to become a teacher or anything, then why...?
You are not a teacher or anything, so...
 

raikado

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Isn't that translation too "strong"? I thought that "demo" was way more subtle. It does help though if I translate it in my head with "or something".
 

Toritoribe

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The "strong" nuance can be possible depending on the context(the tone of the voice, for instance). You can think it as 先生でも何でもない, and therefore it's a variation of "listing examples / too/also", not "even".
 

raikado

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Hello,

I've found another sentence with ~ても仕方ない that I don't quite understand. View image: ツ神窶堙娯?堙 14 129

It's the last sentence on the page, そりゃ、怒られても仕方ない・・・

Context: So, this guy drives out evil spirits by making the person fall in love him. Usually, after they fall in love with him, the spirit is out and the girl doesn't remember anything, so it's like they never met. But if there is also a goddess inside, then the girls retain all their memories. This girl is one with a goddess inside.

So, the translation given for that sentence is "Well, it's natural for her to be angry...", but this is like ~ても仕方ない is translated as "it can't be helped that".

My translation of this sentence would be: "Well, it is no use to get scolded...", "It is no use to get upset with me...". I'm thinking that he is trying to say that he didn't know she had a goddess inside and he thought she forgot about him. I have my doubts with this translation though...
 

letianchen

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shes mad because rather than actually liking the girls who had the megami inside them he did it simply for the sake of capturing them rather than love. I think its better to interpret it like

怒られても = even if she ( its a girl in thsi case) gets mad at ( me)
仕方ない = it cant be helped

so all together its like," even if she gets mad it cant be helped" so the translation given is pretty spot on
 

raikado

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shes mad because rather than actually liking the girls who had the megami inside them he did it simply for the sake of capturing them rather than love. I think its better to interpret it like

怒られても = even if she ( its a girl in thsi case) gets mad at ( me)
仕方ない = it cant be helped

so all together its like," even if she gets mad it cant be helped" so the translation given is pretty spot on

The problem is that, as I've written before in this thread, ても仕方ない all together means "it is no use to...".

But then I searched ても仕方ない and I found at least two "blogs" that were saying that it translates as "it is no use to...", "doing that is in vain", etc. But now the sentence doesn't make sense anymore ("It is no use to move around only here").
 

raikado

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Ohh, sorry, it seems like I misunderstood the first time. So literally ても仕方ない means "even if....it can't be helped", as letianchen said. It is translated as "it is no use to..." in some cases just to sound more natural in english.
 

Toritoribe

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~ても仕方ない can be used both for 意味がない / 無駄だ "no use" and 無理もない "acceptable / understandable". こっちだけ動いても仕方ないis the former, whereas 怒られても仕方ない is the latter.
 
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