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てきた vs ていった

zuotengdazuo

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琴里があごをさすっていると、手元のディスプレイには②の回答が集まっていった

Hi. For the underlined part, what would be the difference between 集まってきた and 集まっていった? It seems the only difference is that they differ in the reference point in time. As to 集まってきた, the reference point in time is now—we are looking back from the present. As to 集まっていった, the reference point in time is past—we are looking forward from the past.
Am I on the right track? Are there any other differences?
Thank you.
 

Toritoribe

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The difference between ~てきた and ~ていった is not whether the reference point in time is present or past. The difference is "talking about past of the reference point" vs. "talking about future of the reference point". The reference point also can be past for ~てきた (e.g. 昨日までにほとんどの回答が集まってきた).

In conclusion;
reference point is past
~てきた/~ていった

now
~てきた/~ていく

future
~てくる/~ていく

As for your example, 集まっていった shows that the number of the answer #2 was increasing (it continued in the future of the reference point). 琴里があごをさすっている could be the starting point of the action 集まる.
 

zuotengdazuo

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Thank you, toritorib-san. But 琴里があごをさすっている describes a present action, and the the starting point of the action 集まる should be in the past.
 

Toritoribe

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That's not a present action. You must already learn that the Japanese tense system is different from the one in English.
e.g.
1. 昨日昼食を食べていると、電話が鳴った。
2. 昨夜通りを歩いていると、雨が降ってきた。
3. 今朝駅に着くと、電車はもう出ていた。

食べている, 歩いている and 着く are all past actions. When と is attached to an on-going action or a state, the event in the main clause occurs during it (#1, 2 and your example). As for #3, the temporal order is "main clause --> と clause".
 

zuotengdazuo

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1. 昨日昼食を食べていると、電話が鳴った。
2. 昨夜通りを歩いていると、雨が降ってきた。
Thank you again. But why don’t we say the following versions? Is it because of と? I thought ていた was for on-going past actions.
1. 昨日昼食を食べていたと、電話が鳴った。
2. 昨夜通りを歩いていたと、雨が降ってきた。
 

Toritoribe

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Is it because of と?
Yes. The と conditional can't be attached to past forms. This is a very basic rule learners must know when they learn about conditional clauses. Check your textbook.

I thought ていた was for on-going past actions.
先週彼が誰かと話しているのを見た。
彼女が熱心に本を読んでいるので、声をかけられなかった。

話している and 読んでいる are not the present progressive here. Again, the tense system is difference between Japanese and English.
 

healer

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Toritoribe-san if I may...

先週彼が誰かと話しているのを見た。
Is the main verb of the part of the sentence before のを always in dictionary form, i.e. no past tense, regardless?

彼女が熱心に本を読んでいるので、声をかけられなかった。
Is it possible that 読んでいる to be replaced with 読んでいた since ので takes plain form including a past form?

Thanks for your kindness!
 

Toritoribe

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Is the main verb of the part of the sentence before のを always in dictionary form, i.e. no past tense, regardless?
I don't know where you got such a rule, but there is no problem to attach のを to a past form. 先週彼が誰かと話していたのを見た。 has the same meaning as the original. The reference point in time is when it's said/written in this case.

Is it possible that 読んでいる to be replaced with 読んでいた since ので takes plain form including a past form?
Yes, that's possible because of the same reason as the above, not because of ので.
 

healer

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Thanks Toritoribe-san!
I did come across verbs of plain past form before のを and ので. I asked just in case I had got it wrong.
 

healer

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Yes, that's possible because of the same reason as the above, not because of ので.
Now I remember why I asked what I asked.

話している and 読んでいる are not the present progressive here.
When I read your comment I wondered if they aren't present progressive, what else could they be? Since the main verbs are in the past form, then what the main verbs refer to must be something in the past. Why aren't the past progressive to be used? So I supposed you were trying to say they're like と where the verb that goes with is always in non-past form and the time of the event is always dictated by the main verb at the end of the sentence. I queried myself what I had learnt.

Since both example sentences can take the past form as well I would have thought the meaning wouldn't be changed even if verbs of the past form are adopted. Am I correct?
Are the following the same in meaning as your original?
先週彼が誰かと話していたのを見た。I saw him talking to someone last week.
彼女が熱心に本を読んでいたので、声をかけられなかった。She was so engrossed in reading I couldn't talk to her.

Thanks again for your patience with me!
 

Toritoribe

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Are the following the same in meaning as your original?
Yes. Please refer to the following post.

 

healer

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Thanks Toritoribe-san for the recommended reading! I shall dwell on it for the time being.

By the way would you mind tell me what に does grammatically in 開放感にof the example sentence you gave? is it converting the noun of 開放感 to adverb? How would you translate 昨日開放感に溢れていた教室に into English? Thanks!
 

Toritoribe

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would you mind tell me what に does grammatically in 開放感にof the example sentence you gave?
に indicates the state of action.
e.g.
希望に満ちている
劣等感に苦しむ
後悔の念に苛まれる

に の解説
1[格助]名詞、名詞に準じる語、動詞の連用形・連体形などに付く。
8 動作・作用の行われ方、その状態のあり方を表す。「直角に交わる」「会わずに帰る」


How would you translate 昨日開放感に溢れていた教室に into English?
As you can see in the thread, it's a figurative expression used in a novel, expressing that the walls and windows of the classroom are destroyed (and lost). It usually means "a/the classroom that is overflowing with an open feeling" (i.e., it doesn't mean the walls and windows are lost in the classroom).
 

healer

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Thanks a lot, Toritoribe-san.
It helps a lot.

に indicates the state of action.
e.g.
希望に満ちている
劣等感に苦しむ
後悔の念に苛まれる
From your examples I’ve learnt that に is used instead of を for objects which are abstract nouns.

Could に be replaced with も for the meaning of “as well” like what we do with を?
 

bentenmusume

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が and を are replaced with も for the meaning of "as well" (or は for a contrastive meaning)

With に (and で, and へ) you would use the double particle にも, just like you would for 大阪にも行きました.

希望にも満ちている
劣等感にも苦しむ
公開の念にも苛まれる

etc.
 

healer

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Thanks you’re a gentleman and a scholar.

Sorry one more thing, is には for contrast and emphasis too?
 
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