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しましょう / -ます / から / してもらう / おいしいこと / キャッシュカード

eeky

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Hi again,


1. せっかく習った漢字は忘れないようにしましょう。

Translation given: "Please try not to forget kanji which you have spent considerable time and energy to learn."

しましょう is a probable/volitional form, right? I don't recall seeing this translated as an imperative before. Is this essentially the same usage that's often translated as "let's (try not to forget)...", or is something different?


2. Sometimes when reading sentences with no surrounding context, I for some reason mentally translate -ます as an instruction or imperative. For example, I looked at 言葉の意味がわからないときは辞書をひきます and mentally translated it as "When you come across a word you don't know, look it up in the dictionary" (the translation given is "When I come across words ...".) Is my translation feasible? I'm guessing not, but I'd just like to check...


3. 作文の題は自由ですから、あしたまでに書いてきてください。

Translation given: "Please write a composition by tomorrow on any topic you desire."

I understand this fine except for から. What meaning does から have here?


4. 先生にアドバイスを求める/アドバイスをしてもらう

This is a heading for a lesson describing ways of asking advice, giving opinions, etc.

What does してもらう mean? I assumed something to do with receiving (though I don't quite understand what して adds). However, this would give something like "Requesting advice from your teacher / receiving advice", which seems odd. I'd expect the contrast to be between receiving and giving advice. How would you translate this heading, and what meaning is して adding?


5. Said while looking at a restaurant menu:

ちょっと高いけど、おいしいことはおいしいらしいですよ。

I am a bit hazy about this idiom. Does the part after the comma literally mean something like "as for its being delicious, it looks delicious", which we might translate simply as "it all looks delicious" or similar?


6. In the word キャッシュカード, is the vowel sound in カー exactly the same as the vowel sound in キャ except held for longer? (I mean in the regular Japanese pronunciation, not the pronunciation if one were deliberately trying to mimic the English way of saying it. I have chosen this word as exemplifying my own bad habit of pronouncing Japanese vowel sounds differently depending on how I imagine they would sound if in English words.)
 

Toritoribe

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1. せっかく習った漢字は忘れないようにしましょう。
Translation given: "Please try not to forget kanji which you have spent considerable time and energy to learn."
しましょう is a probable/volitional form, right?
That's a volitional form of します. Since しましょう is classical as a probable/guess form, するでしょう is far more commonly used for the case.

I don't recall seeing this translated as an imperative before. Is this essentially the same usage that's often translated as "let's (try not to forget)...", or is something different?
That's the same.

2. Sometimes when reading sentences with no surrounding context, I for some reason mentally translate -ます as an instruction or imperative. For example, I looked at 言葉の意味がわからないときは辞書をひきます an d mentally translated it as "When you come across a word you don't know, look it up in the dictionary" (the translation given is "When I come across words ...".) Is my translation feasible? I'm guessing not, but I'd just like to check...
Yeah, both are possible. Probably your tendency of interpretation would be from the textbook style of writing you've ever read.

3. 作文の題は自由ですから、あしたまでに書いてきてくだ さい。
Translation given: "Please write a composition by tomorrow on any topic you desire."
I understand this fine except for から. What meaning does から have here?
Roughly, it means "because" as same as ので in 自由なので. "Since you can choose the title of the composition freely,,,"

4. 先生にアドバイスを求める/アドバイスをしてもらう
This is a heading for a lesson describing ways of asking advice, giving opinions, etc.
What does してもらう mean? I assumed something to do with receiving (though I don't quite understand what して adds). However, this would give something like "Requesting advice from your teacher / receiving advice", which seems odd. I'd expect the contrast to be between receiving and giving advice. How would you translate this heading, and what meaning is して adding?
アドバイスをしてもらう: having advice (from the teacher)

~てもらう means "to receive a favour"

5. Said while looking at a restaurant menu:
ちょっと高いけど、おいしいことはおいしいらしいです よ。
I am a bit hazy about this idiom. Does the part after the comma literally mean something like "as for its being delicious, it looks delicious", which we might translate simply as "it all looks delicious" or similar?
I heard it's definitely delicious.

らしい shows that the reason/information is not from the speaker's own. "Looks" is for (おいし)そう.

6. In the word キャッシュカード, is the vowel sound in カー exactly the same as the vowel sound in キャ except held for longer? (I mean in the regular Japanese pronunciation, not the pronunciation if one were deliberately trying to mimic the English way of saying it. I have chosen this word as exemplifying my own bad habit of pronouncing Japanese vowel sounds differently depending on how I imagine they would sound if in English words.)
No, they are completely different. It might be similar to "ca in cash" vs. "ca in car".
 

eeky

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Roughly, it means "because" as same as ので in 自由なので. "Since you can choose the title of the composition freely,,,"
Thanks Toritoribe. Yes, I considered "because" or "since", but in English "Since you can choose the title of the composition freely, please write a composition by tomorrow" doesn't seem right to me. The necessary cause and effect relationship doesn't seem to be present.

I heard it's definitely delicious.
らしい shows that the reason/information is not from the speaker's own. "Looks" is for (おいし)そう.
Oh. In my dictionary らしい is defined as "seem, appear, look like".

No, they are completely different. It might be similar to "ca in cash" vs. "ca in car".
Is this because of the influence of the English pronunciation, or are there native Japanese words that have the same pattern of vowel sounds?
 

undrentide

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No, they are completely different. It might be similar to "ca in cash" vs. "ca in car".

Is this because of the influence of the English pronunciation, or are there native Japanese words that have the same pattern of vowel sounds?

きゃ is one of the 拗音 and different from き or か.

Yōon - Wikipedia
拗音 in English Wikipedia
拗音 - Wikipedia
Japanese version with more detailed explanation.

Both キャッシュ and カード are transcription of English words and the mora which sounds closest to Japanese ears are applied.

Just a side note: Sometimes there are more than two way of transcription for a single word, depending on how people hear (or sometimes "see") the word.
ラムネ and レモネード is one example - they are both transcription of the same word, lemonade.
When people in general were not so familiar with English, they solely depended on the sound they hear, thus ラムネ was closest to what they heard (lemonade).
Later when more people know about lemon and see the English spelling "lemonade", they tried to write it in a way that (they feel) similar to the sound and the spelling.
(Today ラムネ and レモネード are referring to something completely different in Japanese language, but the origin is the same.)
 

Glenn

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Just something to keep in mind: sometimes commands are a bit to direct for Japanese, so they go with a "let's" to soften it. We do it in English too, like "let's try to keep this place clean," but they do it more often, I believe.
Oh. In my dictionary らしい is defined as "seem, appear, look like".

Yeah, and it does mean those things, but the usage is different. 今度は我々の番らしい is "looks like it's our turn," but the "looks delicious" of おいしそう is a different animal. In your above example this らしい is a hearsay marker, saying that the speaker has read or heard that the food there was good.

Is this because of the influence of the English pronunciation, or are there native Japanese words that have the same pattern of vowel sounds?

I've got to say this is news to me. As far as I've ever known Standard Japanese has five vowels, so the vowels of キャ and カ should be the same (although they may differ in small ways).

In your above example this らしい is a hearsay marker, saying that the speaker has read or heard that the food there was good.

Although, the らしい in my example isn't necessarily hearsay... There's something about the visual evidence that allows you to say らしい in one case and doesn't in the おいしそう case, but I don't know what it is. Although, if you're looking at food and you think it looks good, you pretty much have to say おいしそう. That's just how that one's done.

This is going to look really strange if it ends up being an auto-merged double post.
 
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eeky

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きゃ is one of the 拗音 and different from き or か.
So the difference is nothing to do with the short versus long vowel?

Sorry if I've asked something similar before here, but is it the case that short and long vowels always have the same quality, and only the duration varies? For example, カー is always the same sound as カ (except for duration), and キャー is always the same sound as キャ except for duration, and so on in all other cases?

Do other 拗音 vowels also differ in quality from their regular counterparts? For example, is the "o" sound in キョ different from the "o" sound in コ? My ear is very poor and I find it hard to tell when listening to recordings of Japanese speakers.

Finally, is it the case that, in properly articulated pronunciation (i.e. ignoring "lazy" pronunciation), a given Japanese syllable should always sound exactly the same wherever it occurs (ignoring tonal variation and variations in stress; I'm really asking about the fundamental quality of the vowel sounds).
 

Glenn

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I'm pretty sure there's a mixup between what at least Toritoribe, undrentide, and I are talking about here. I was commenting on the value of the Japanese vowels, but it seems they're commenting on the values of the English vowels they were transcribed from. I thought eeky wanted to know if there was a difference in pronunciation between キャ and カ, not how to arrive at the English vowels they came from.
 

eeky

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I've got to say this is news to me. As far as I've ever known Standard Japanese has five vowels, so the vowels of キャ and カ should be the same (although they may differ in small ways).
This is a puzzle because Toritoribe says they are "completely different". Do the pronunciations vary depending on region/dialect maybe?

I'm pretty sure there's a mixup between what at least Toritoribe, undrentide, and I are talking about here. I was commenting on the value of the Japanese vowels, but it seems they're commenting on the values of the English vowels they were transcribed from. I thought eeky wanted to know if there was a difference in pronunciation between キャ and カ, not how to arrive at the English vowels they came from.
Correct. I am only interested in the value of the vowels in regular native Japanese pronunciation. I am not asking about the differing ways in which Japanese people may perceive and transliterate English vowel sounds.

Perhaps I chose a confusing example that happened to be a transliterated word, though I did try to explain when I said in my original post "I mean in the regular Japanese pronunciation, not the pronunciation if one were deliberately trying to mimic the English way of saying it."
 
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Glenn

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eeky said:
This is a puzzle because Toritoribe says they are "completely different". Do the pronunciations vary depending on region/dialect maybe?
Yeah, I saw that. I'm guessing he wasn't talking about the difference between the vowel in キャ and the vowel in カ; he was talking about the difference between the vowels in English they came from. But we'll have to wait for him to confirm that. As far as I know they're both [a].

[Edit] Due to all the edits I get the feeling this thread has nearly reached the point of being hopelessly convoluted.
 

eeky

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Due to all the edits I get the feeling this thread has nearly reached the point of being hopelessly convoluted.
Let me try to re-ask the question then:

In Standard Japanese are there really just five fundamental vowel sounds, so that the vowel sounds in カ, カー, キャ. キャー are always fundamentally the same (except for duration) wherever they occur in whatever word, and similarly for all other analogous sets of syllables?

(The "y" sound in キャ is not considered part of the "vowel sound".)

(The "y" sound in ニ鱈ニ槌 is not considered part of the "vowel sound".)
 

Toritoribe

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Yes, I considered "because" or "since", but in English "Since you can choose the title of the composition freely, please write a composition by tomorrow" doesn't seem right to me. The necessary cause and effect relationship doesn't seem to be present.
Yeah, the relationship between the two clauses seems thin. The hidden structure is like this.

Since you can choose the title of the composition freely, --> you would be able to write the composition relatively easily. --> So please write a composition by tomorrow.

This から is often used when the main clause has the mood of request/order/invitation.

お茶が冷えてますから、飲んでください。
(The tea is chilled. --> If you are thisty, --> please drink it.)

Oh. In my dictionary らしい is defined as "seem, appear, look like".
らしい can't be used for the things the speaker can judge directly by him/herself, e.g., you can't use この靴は大きいらしい when you are fitting shoes in a shop. (大きいようだ/大きいみたいだ is used for the case.)

Let me try to re-ask the question then:
In Standard Japanese are there really just five fundamental vowel sounds, so that the vowel sounds in カ, カー, キャ. キャー are always fundamentally the same (except for duration) wherever they occur in whatever word, and similarly for all other analogous sets of syllables?
(The "y" sound in キャ is not considered part of the "vowel sound".)
Oh, I meant the difference in mora.:p They are all the same あ in 客室[きゃくしつ], 確執[くしつ] and 悪質[くしつ].
 

undrentide

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Sorry for my misunderstanding about your question, and my answer.
Oh, I meant the difference in mora. They are all the same あ in 客室[きゃくしつ], 確執[かくしつ] and 悪質[あくしつ].

Ditto! :p
 

Glenn

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I suspected as much, but I'm glad it's been cleared up now! :)
 
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