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かと思うと

bakaKanadajin

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I have the following examples in my book:

1)リーさんは、「さようなら」と言ったかと思うと教室を飛び 出していた。
2)空が暗くなったかと思ったら、大粒の雨が降ってき ました。

I'm a little confused into how the idea translates over. How does a sky think? To me this is saying:

1) Just when/as Ri-san thought to say Sayonara she bolted from the classroom
2) Right after the sky (thought it) turned dark it started raining heavily. (lit: big rain drops fell)

How does the idea of 'thought' translate through, along with the idea of immediacy?

I realize there are no English equivalents but I don't expect a literal translation, just an explanation of the idea this grammar's trying to get across.

Cheers
 

epigene

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How about this?

(1) The moment I thought/saw/heard Lee say goodbye, he/she bolted through the door.

(2) The moment I though/saw the sky turn dark, it started to rain heavily.

Just my ni-en!! 😌
 

Ashikaga

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Here is my 500 Yen

1)リーさんは、「さようなら」と言ったかと思うと教室を飛び出していた。
2)空が暗くなったかと思ったら、大粒の雨が降ってきました。
In both cases, the one who is doing the "thinking" is the speaker "I".

リーさんは、「さようなら」と言ったかと思うと教室を飛び出していた。
The moment I thought Lee said "Sayonara", she was out of the classroom.

空が暗くなったかと思ったら、大粒の雨が降ってきました。
Just as I thought that the sky had turned dark, big drops of rain started to fall.

You could just forget about the subject "I" business and think of the expression ~~と思うと、~~と思ったら as an equivalent of the English expressions, " The moment ____ did ____.....", "As soon as _____" or "No sooner than_____" etc.

Of course, there are instances where 思うと is just what it says literally.

上半身裸のブラッド・ピットのことを思うと、 変な気持ちになって、手に汗をかきます。
When I think about Brad Pitt shirtless, it makes me feel funny and my palms get sweaty.

昨日の夜、酔っ払ってみんなの前で私のブラッド・ピットへの秘めた思いを打ち明けたと思うと、とても恥ずかしいです。
To think that I have confessed my secret love for Brad Pitt in front of everyone last night in a drunken stupor, I am very embarrased.  
 

Tomii515

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上半身裸のブラッド・ピットのことを思うと、 変な気持ちになって、手に汗をかきます。
When I think about Brad Pitt shirtless, it makes me feel funny and my palms get sweaty.
昨日の夜、酔っ払ってみんなの前で私のブラッド・ピッ トへの秘めた思いを打ち明けたと思うと、とても恥ずかしいです。
To think that I have confessed my secret love for Brad Pitt in front of everyone last night in a drunken stupor, I am very embarrased.

Hahahaha :oops:
You're dream seems to have been a fun one 👍
 

bakaKanadajin

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Ok so we are assuming that there is a subject doing the thinking, even in the example of the storm. I wasn't clear on that part and it seemed as though the storm was somehow doing some thinking, or that 思う was suddenly being used for something other than 'think'.

Cheers
 

Ashikaga

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IF you have to define WHO is doing the "thinking", it is the speaker as I said in my original reply. It is NOT the storm.

Two more examples.

ついこの間梅雨が明けたと思ったら、もうすでに9月。  夏が終わろうとしています。
Although (I thought) it was just the other day that the rainy season has ended, it is already september. Summer is about to end.

ポップコーンの袋が電子レンジの中で膨らみ始めたかと思うと, 溶けたバターのいい匂いが台所中に広がった。
Just as (I thought that) the bag of popcorn had started to expand, the great smell of melted butter filled the kitchen.


As I also said in the same post, you could just think of it as an expression that means "As soon as", "Just as", etc.
 

bakaKanadajin

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Ashikaga-san, thanks very much. It's clear now. I think my main difficulty was just allowing the verb 思う to stand in for things like 'just as', since my first inclination is to affix some kind of subject directly to the 'thinking'. As you said, it's more of a general treatment and a speaker or 'thinker' is not necessary or necessarily present.

If I had to set it apart from something like とたんに、could I say that, because とたんに uses the ~た形 before it, there's a more definite completion? かと思うと seems closer to something like するかしないかのうちに、where a slight amount of ambiguity exists between the two actions.
 

Elizabeth

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Ashikaga-san, thanks very much. It's clear now. I think my main difficulty was just allowing the verb 思う to stand in for things like 'just as', since my first inclination is to affix some kind of subject directly to the 'thinking'. As you said, it's more of a general treatment and a speaker or 'thinker' is not necessary or necessarily present.
If I had to set it apart from something like とたんに、could I say that, because とたんに uses the ~た形 before it, there's a more definite completion? かと思うと seems closer to something like するかしないかのうちに、where a slight amount of ambiguity exists between the two actions.
Anyway, the main point is that とたんに expresses the idea that one action took place immediately after another (someone did something or some event/action/thought happened), so maybe for psychics etc it is interchangable with かと思うと, but I don't think normally focused humans can really use とたんに very much or at all to talk about an occurance resulting from another person's thoughts.

リーさんは「さよなら」と言った途端に、教室を飛び出して
いた。
 I think this is better. 😌

Or, リーさんが「さよなら」というのを(わたしは)聞いた途端に、彼女は、教室
を飛び出してた。
 
Last edited:

Glenn

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ポップコーンの袋が電子レンジの中で膨らみ始めたかと思うと, 溶けたバターのいい匂いが台所中に広がった。
That's だいどころじゅう, right? I have problems distinguishing between ちゅう and じゅう readings for that character. I know there's a difference, but it escapes me most of the time.
 

Ashikaga

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That's だいどころじゅう, right? I have problems distinguishing between ちゅう and じゅう readings for that character. I know there's a difference, but it escapes me most of the time.
Usually, when it is preceded by a location or when it indicates a time frame, it is じゅう.

世界中
部屋中
校庭中
家中
会社中
年中
今日中

Off course, there are exceptions as in...

午前中
昨年中
入院中
在校中
仕事中
商談中

OK, those are alot of exceptions..lol I suppose you just have to memorize.
There may very well be a rule regarding this that I am not aware of. Perhaps others who are more knowledgeable can enlighten us. :?
 

Glenn

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I remembered what I thought the rule was: じゅう=completely throughout; ちゅう=somewhere in the middle of it, but not completely throughout. It feels like the difference between 〜ている間 and 〜ている間に to me (but with spacial uses as well as temporal). Does that seem right?
 

Ashikaga

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I'm not sure....

今日中(じゅう)に / 午前中(ちゅう)に、在校中(ちゅう)にお世話になっ た先生方に、お礼の手紙を書かなければいけません。

By the end of today / In the morning, I have to write thank-you-notes to the teachers who helped me while I was at the school.

Now I am thoroughly confused!!! :unsure: Thanks a lot, Glenn!
 

Toritoribe

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I remembered what I thought the rule was: じゅう=completely throughout; ちゅう=somewhere in the middle of it, but not completely throughout. It feels like the difference between 〜ている間 and 〜ている間に to me (but with spacial uses as well as temporal). Does that seem right?
As for "place/thing/action", that hypothesis seems correct.
e.g.
ウイルスが血液中にいる。
血液じゅうに: The virus exist throughout the blood.
血液ちゅうに: The virus exist (somewhere) in the blood.

However, regarding "time", it could be far more complicated. Here's an interesting consideration. (a bit long, though😅)

文法考察ファイル#33

I can't summarize this.😅
 

Glenn

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I just wanted to let you know I'm still trying to trudge through that. It seems pretty interesting and detailed and could be helpful, but it's a bit too much for me to swallow at once. Plus I'm tired right now, and I just read through a bunch of stuff that I had figured anyway. (But then again it seems like I'm always tired when I try to read this, so...)
 

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