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お元気で and 気をつけて

healer

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What does お元気で actually mean? It seems to be used only when people are saying goodbye to one another. Since it is said while parting I do not think it is a question like お元気ですか。 It probably means "be well". Is it short for お元気でください?

Is 気をつけて short for 気をつけてください?
 

joadbres

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Yes to all of your questions.

Edit:

Actually, it is probably better to think of お元気で as an abbreviation of お元気でいてください。 The で here has an adverbial role.
 
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healer

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Thanks!

Not too sure what you meant by adverbial role for で though.

I presume no one would say お元気でいてください or 気をつけてください but their short forms these days.
 

Majestic

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気をつけてください is one of the most common expressions heard in Japan
元気でいてください is a valid expression, but when leaving or parting with someone 元気で行ってらっしゃい or a number of variations is also quite common.
 

healer

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it might not be correct

Is it like the で in 元気です but す is taken away so that the sentence can be continued. Just like two clauses joined together with the first part ends with a ~て verb or a ~で verb. If I remember correctly, we can do the same with nouns or adjectives too.
 

joadbres

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Is it like the で in 元気です but す is taken away so that the sentence can be continued. Just like two clauses joined together with the first part ends with a ~て verb or a ~で verb.

I don't think so.

In Japanese, the same spoken sound can have a variety of different meanings / functions. Especially で and が. I was under the impression that the "で" in this case caused the preceding word (元気) to be used as an adverb, but after a brief web search, it seems that might be wrong. It might come from a shortened form of でいる, which indicates a state of continuation (i.e., "stay 元気"). But I don't know for sure.

I don't want to give you wrong information, so if you really need to know this, you'll have to get the information from one of the forum members who is 詳しい about 文法.

Incidentally, when learning a second language, sometimes it is good to understand the derivation of terms, to help you remember and to make usage intuitive, but sometimes the actual derivation is so convoluted that it is simply not worth learning it. Japanese has a lot of that, I find.
 

Majestic

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I think this one covers it
で is a particle indicating the state. I don't think its wrong to say its use is adverbial.
 

healer

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good to understand the derivation of terms

Thanks again!

I agree with you. I do try my best to understand as much as possible but also hesitate to ask as it might be too much to ask.

Even I don't get the answer I would like to get I still appreciate your effort. The incident would help me remember what I ask and why I ask.
 

Toritoribe

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お元気で is used adverbially there, as joadbres-san wrote. で is an inflectional suffix, not a particle, in this case. みんな is a noun, whereas 元気 is the stem of na-adjective. That's the difference. (The etymologies of these で are the same, though.)

Is it like the で in 元気です but す is taken away so that the sentence can be continued. Just like two clauses joined together with the first part ends with a ~て verb or a ~で verb. If I remember correctly, we can do the same with nouns or adjectives too.
で in the -te forms of verbs is from the euphonic change of "-masu stem of verbs + particle て".
e.g.
泳ぐ
泳ぎて --> 泳いで

死ぬ
死にて --> 死んで

飛ぶ
飛びて --> 飛んで

飲む
飲みて --> 飲んで

On the other hand, the particle で and the inflectional suffix of na-adjectives で are from the two particles に + て. So, お元気で has nothing to do with the -te form of verbs.
 

healer

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お元気で is used adverbially there, as joadbres-san wrote. で is an inflectional suffix, not a particle, in this case.
On the other hand, the particle で and the inflectional suffix of na-adjectives で are from the two particles に + て.

Thanks! I don't think I can follow. If it is too much to ask, please just ignore it.
I have learnt the で form like the examples you gave. If you don't mind could you please rephrase your explanation.
Are you saying the で in お元気で is a particle from the two particles に + て. But how does it come about?
Again if you think it is too much for my level, please forget what I ask.
 

Toritoribe

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1)
inflectional suffix で
きれいで
静かで
優雅で
寛大で

All the examples above are treated as a conjugation form (-te form) of na-adjective.

2)
particle で
みんなで
ひとりで
笑顔で
早歩きで

These are all adverbial phrase expressing a state, similar to the examples in the group #1 in meaning, but the construction is "noun + particle で".


The particle で (and also the inflectional suffix で) is originally from the euphonic change of にて, not only for expressing a state, but all the usages of で. In fact, にて is used instead of で in classical expressions.
e.g.
教室にて試験を受ける (location)
18歳にて卒業する (age/time)
タクシーにて家に帰る (means)
小麦粉にてケーキを焼く (material)
風邪にて学校を休む (cause/reason)

Similarly, お元気にてお過ごしください works fine as お元気でお過ごしください.
 

healer

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Thanks very much for your patience and tolerance.
It is a very good explanation.

I had also learnt the particle で. I just didn't know で here is taking an adverbial role in terms of grammar terminology.

By the way, are you also saying にて and で are interchangeable to some extent where で is a new usage whereas にて is sort of archaic?
教室にて試験を受ける (location)
18歳にて卒業する (age/time)
タクシーにて家に帰る (means)
小麦粉にてケーキを焼く (material)
風邪にて学校を休む (cause/reason)
modern usage below?
教室で試験を受ける (location)
18歳で卒業する (age/time)
タクシーで家に帰る (means)
小麦粉でケーキを焼く (material)
風邪で学校を休む (cause/reason)
 

Toritoribe

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By the way, are you also saying にて and で are interchangeable to some extent where で is a new usage whereas にて is sort of archaic?
Exactly. で is indeed newer than にて, but で began to be used approximately 700 years ago, though.
 

healer

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So in a sense we can forget にて. Thanks for your prompt reply.
 

joadbres

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So in a sense we can forget にて. Thanks for your prompt reply.

I wouldn't say you can forget it. It is still encountered from time to time, although rather uncommonly. My understanding is that when it is used today, the purpose is to convey a more formal or sophisticated tone.
 

healer

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I wouldn't say you can forget it. It is still encountered from time to time, although rather uncommonly. My understanding is that when it is used today, the purpose is to convey a more formal or sophisticated tone.

Thanks!
 
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