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Help あと「で」デザート「に」アイスクリーム「を」食べましょう。

Zizka

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あと「」デザート「」アイスクリーム「」食べましょう。
I have a question.
Why is the first one で? Isn't あと the time where an action take place?
A Dictionary of Japanese Particle, p.123: Indicates when an action takes/took place.
Actually, in the same book, p.20: indicates the time when an action or process happens or happened.
Of course, the example provided are different in both particles.
For で, we're told:
① Indicates the age of a person (not the case here).
② Imposes a time limit on an action or occurrence (not the case here).
③ Shows the time period when something occurred/occurs, often found in  では and でも patterns. Both examples provided for this particular function use では and でも so it's hard to tell if it can be used in any other contexts. If I had to guess I'd say this the right answer but I'm not sure.
Help anyone?
 

Buntaro

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Zizka,

I want you to consider these examples of swimming and rivers. Which do you think you can understand?

kawa de oyogu
kawa ni oyogu
kawa e oyogu
kawa o oyogu
kawa wa oyogu

I feel we need to discuss these in order to discuss "ato de".
 

Zizka

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Hello, thanks for your help. This is harder than I thought.
kawa de oyogu: 川泳ぐ: I swim in river (where the action takes place).
kawa ni oyogu: 川泳ぐ: I have trouble translating this one. I mean, it's the direction of the action. I swim in that river maybe?
kawa e oyogu: 川泳ぐ Same thing as に, they're interchangeable, destination
kawa o oyogu: 川泳ぐ, well here it could mean the starting point but there's no movement involved, so I'd say same thing as に.
kawa wa oyogu 川泳ぐ The river swims? I don't think this one is possible. The subject is omitted here though so maybe it can be understood differently?
 

Buntaro

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Zizka,

You did very well. Let's take a look:

kawa de oyogu: 川で泳ぐ: swim in the river. I translate で as "action within the limitations of an area".
kawa ni oyogu: 川に泳ぐ: swim into the river. Start swimming outside of the river (for example, in the bay), then swim into the river.
kawa e oyogu: 川へ泳ぐ swim towards the river. This does not include the idea of actually swimming into the river, so no, here に and へ do not mean the same thing.
kawa o oyogu: 川を泳ぐ, swim the river (swim the entire length of the river)
kawa wa oyogu 川は泳ぐ Yes, this sounds a little strange, "the river swims", but I guess it could possibly occur in a child's book. The topic of de-ni-e-o post-positionals is quite different than the topic of wa-ga post-positionals, but I thought I'd throw in a wa-ga example.

How does this sound so far?

You wrote,

"The subject is omitted here though so maybe it can be understood differently?"

A Japanese sentence can have only a subject, only a topic, or both a topic and a subject. For example, "Watashi wa onaka ga suita." ("I am hungry.") contains both a subject and a topic. Another example is, "Watashi wa atama ga itai desu." ("I have a headache.") Omitting a subject does not necessarily change the meaning of a sentence. Some sentences are not 'designed' to have a topic or subject.
 
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Zizka

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Fair enough but I must admit I still don't understand why it's あとin my first sample sentence as opposed to
あとに. This is especially confusing considering that from what I can tell ''before x'' is 先に, not 先で. It would therefore make sense that it would be あとに as opposed to あとに since it's an antonym.
 

Buntaro

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…which brings me to my example of “kawa de oyogu” (“swim within the limitations of a river”).

Consider this example: “Benkyou shimashou. Ato de, eiga o mi ni ikimashou.” (“Let’s study. Afterwards, let’s go see a movie.)

“De” means “action within the limitation of”, so my example refers to the action of going and seeing a movie only within the limitation that it occurs after we study.

Can you try to put together an example of “ato ni”?
 

Zizka

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I just read your explanation. Meanwhile, I read another one of my books about で. I think when you say within the limitations of you mean:
Indicates amount and scope : "within the space (time) of, in for".
Well they seem similar anyway. Just as an anchor point from my own books.


Can you try to put together an example of “ato ni”?
I was driving back home and I was thinking if it were actually possible to use あとに.

Hmm...
So according to All About Particles:
に: indicates the specific time at which an action takes place.
So if I had to guess I'd say that あとmeans right after while あとis more like: within the time after.
But I'd say that's a shaky definition at best and not something I'd feel confident relying on.
あと「」デザート「」アイスクリーム「」食べましょう。
I mean, couldn't that be grammatically correct as well? Unusual but suppose you're in a rush and you want to have desert right after dinner, wouldn't it work too (grammatically)?
 

Zizka

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I think I got it. I had to look through a third book to find the answer, A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar:
A particle which indicates the time when s.t. terminates or the amount of time a period or activity has taken.

It fits pretty nicely with my sample sentence.
 

Toritoribe

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Before pointing out your understanding of the definition above is wrong, did you read my responses in your other threads? Any response to that? Or, judging from a fact that you still have been posting your answers and interpretations only in the blog section regardless of my advice, you are satisfied with your interpretations whether they are wrong or not since your answers are correct, maybe? Then, I'm going to stop replying to you anymore since my explanations must be useless to you.
 

Zizka

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I wasn't aware I had to follow your advice, Toritoribe. I want to keep a blog to keep track of my progress and archive my notes in one spot. There's really nothing more to it than that.
As for the other answers, I'm still working on it, I like to vary the exercises I do so it doesn't become too tedious.
If you feel that's unreasonable and don't want to help anymore, I thank you for the help you've provided so far but I think you should give people the benefit of the doubt.
 

Toritoribe

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I wasn't aware I had to follow your advice
Of course you don't need to do that. As I wrote in my reply in your blog, you hardly get to response as far as you continue posting only in the blog section. Furthermore, it's useless for other learners who are looking for explanations in this forum since the search system doesn't cover the blog section as far as I know. That's why I recommend using the forum.

As for the other answers, I'm still working on it, I like to vary the exercises I do so it doesn't become too tedious.
That's your preference, so it's OK for that. I think you must get knowledge about the difference between は and が now more clearly than before, so if you do the same exercises in "は Vs が Vs も" blog, or the ones in the previous blogs, you might find another interpretation why the correct particle is the given one. This is my way of thinking for learning.
 

Toritoribe

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I think I got it. I had to look through a third book to find the answer, A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar:
A particle which indicates the time when s.t. terminates or the amount of time a period or activity has taken.

It fits pretty nicely with my sample sentence.
It corresponds to the 4th definition in the goo dictionary.

での意味
4 期限・限度・基準を表す。「一日で仕上げる」「五つで二〇〇円」

で[格助接助]の意味 - goo国語辞書

other examples of this で
明日で夏休みが終わる。
The summer vacation will be over tomorrow.

一時間で帰ってきます。
I'll return in an hour.

Can you see the difference from あとで in the question? It's actually "the time where an action takes place" in your initial interpretation.

Fair enough but I must admit I still don't understand why it's あとin my first sample sentence as opposed to
あとに. This is especially confusing considering that from what I can tell ''before x'' is 先に, not 先で. It would therefore make sense that it would be あとに as opposed to あとに since it's an antonym.
The same particle are not always used for all antonyms, since there often has the difference in meaning. 先に is not wrong, but the counterpart to あとで is usually まえに.
e.g.
食事をしたあとで、デザートを食べた。
デザートを食べるまえに、食事をした。

I think it's better to think あとで as a kind of set phrase, meaning "later".

As for に vs. へ, it's said that に has a nuance of the destination, but へ is just for direction. It's often interchangeable, though.

Also for ~を泳ぐ vs. ~で泳ぐ, we have threads about it.
Usage of を particle marking "locations"

And the following is the thread mentioned there.
富士山に登ったことがあります | Japan Forum

The search function is useful, isn't it?:emoji_wink:
 

Zizka

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You know, if I read something and I don't reply it doesn't mean I'm ignoring it. I like to take time to think about things. Just as a heads up should this happen again in the future :emoji_wink:
での意味
4 期限・限度・基準を表す。「一日で仕上げる」「五つで二〇〇円」
I can't really understand that. I mean, I could interpret it but I would assume it's fairly technical. I think giving me Japanese definition is bit too advanced for my current level unfortunately.
As for に vs. へ, it's said that に has a nuance of the destination, but へ is just for direction. It's often interchangeable, though.
Yes, I'm ok with this one, it's simple enough.
先に is not wrong, but the counterpart to あとで is usually まえ.
Well it's に again but that's likely a coincidence.
I think it's better to think あとで as a kind of set phrase, meaning "later".
I think so too. Judging from my research in three different books, I couldn't find a single grammatical definition which really fit the で in あとで. It's also written as such in the dictionary.
Can you see the difference from あとで in the question? It's actually "the time where an action takes place" in your initial interpretation.
Well, see in the book time when an action take place is such a broad category. Then you have subcategories which target various aspect of the temporal aspect of で. If you just stick with time when an action take place, then it'd be indistinguishable from に in that aspect.
明日で夏休みが終わる。
The summer vacation will be over tomorrow.

一時間で帰ってきます。
I'll return in an hour.

I think both fit in: ② Imposes a time limit on an action or occurrence. I don't think it's the same function as in
あとで in the sample sentence I provided in my initial post.
Also for ~を泳ぐ vs. ~で泳ぐ, we have threads about it.
Regarding the river, it's just: indicates a space through something or someone moves for を whereas for で it's where the swimming takes place. In other words, with で, people swim in the river and stay there. With を, it's just part of the way to get somewhere else. That's my understanding anyway.
を can also be used to indicate the starting point when it comes to location with verbs of movement.
Peace.
 

Toritoribe

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You know, if I read something and I don't reply it doesn't mean I'm ignoring it.
Yeah, I, either, am not always able to reply soon. I'll write my explanations to your thread は vs が vs も when I have time.

I can't really understand that. I mean, I could interpret it but I would assume it's fairly technical. I think giving me Japanese definition is bit too advanced for my current level unfortunately.
When I quote a definition in J-J dictionaries, I always add the English translation or it's equivalent to the English one you already showed. It's the latter here. You can see example sentences in the quote, and I believe it's useful for your understanding.

I think so too. Judging from my research in three different books, I couldn't find a single grammatical definition which really fit the で in あとで. It's also written as such in the dictionary.
The reason あとで is considered as a set phrase is because あとに can work fine when あと is modified (e.g. 食事をしたあとに、デザートを食べた。).

I don't think it's the same function as in
あとで in the sample sentence I provided in my initial post.
That's exactly what I said. For confirmation, does your dictionary have example sentences for the definition "A particle which indicates the time when s.t. terminates or the amount of time a period or activity has taken"?

Regarding the river, it's just: indicates a space through something or someone moves for を whereas for で it's where the swimming takes place. In other words, with で, people swim in the river and stay there. With を, it's just part of the way to get somewhere else. That's my understanding anyway.
Read again the threads I linked above. We were talking about it more in detail.

を can also be used to indicate the starting point when it comes to location with verbs of movement.
Note that those definitions are not always applied to all verbs. For instance, "indicating the starting point" applies only to the ones that have a nuance of "leaving a place" among intransitive verbs for transfer, e.g., 出る, 離れる, 発つ, 旅立つ. Thus, を can indicates the starting point with 泳ぎ出る, but it can't be so for just ~を泳ぐ. Similarly, を can't indicate the starting point with 歩く, 上がる, 渡る, etc. In the same reason, ~に/へ泳ぐ sounds unnatural. ~に/へ泳いでいく is more commonly used to indicate the destination/direction.

As for 川は泳ぐ, this は is the contrastive marker. It indicates the location of the action, not subject. では is more common, though.
e.g.
川(で)は泳ぐが、海(で)は泳がない。
 

Zizka

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Note that those definitions are not always applied to all verbs. For instance, "indicating the starting point" applies only to the ones that have a nuance of "leaving a place" among intransitive verbs for transfer, e.g., 出る, 離れる, 発つ, 旅立つ. Thus, を can indicates the starting point with 泳ぎ出る, but it can't be so for just ~を泳ぐ. Similarly, を can't indicate the starting point with 歩く, 上がる, 渡る, etc. In the same reason, ~に/へ泳ぐ sounds unnatural. ~に/へ泳いでいく is more commonly used to indicate the destination/direction.
That's a very enlightening distinction. I'll keep it in mind.

As for 川は泳ぐ, this は is the contrastive marker. It indicates the location of the action, not subject. では is more common, though.
Suppose it were a fairy tale and the river itself swam, it'd be then right?
での意味
4 期限・限度・基準を表す。「一日で仕上げる」「五つで二〇〇円」
で[格助接助]の意味 - goo国語辞書
I couldn't find the English translation for this definition. Could you point it out?
For confirmation, does your dictionary have example sentences for the definition "A particle which indicates the time when s.t. terminates or the amount of time a period or activity has taken"?
Yup.
このコンサートは十時「」終わります。
The reason あとで is considered as a set phrase is because あとに can work fine when あと is modified (e.g. 食事をしたあとに、デザートを食べた。).
食事をしたあと
In this case, the function of に would be adverbial, right in the sense of: "After eating...", correct?
As for 川は泳ぐ, this は is the contrastive marker. It indicates the location of the action, not subject.
But doesn't contrastive mean a topic refocus? I would've said は in this case is a topical marker, not a contrastive one. Of course it depends on the context (what came before).

This is from one of the threads you link and I think it's fairly similar to my own definitions of を and で, provided it's correct:
川を泳いだ is like swimming across a river to get somewhere. 川で泳いだ is like you were just swimming in the river, perhaps back-and-forth, perhaps just for fun, but with no destination.
and from the other thread:
It basically says that if you use に your taking 山 as being the point of arrival, and if you use を, you're saying that it was a place of passage (somewhere you passed through). From the examples it appears that に is more appropriate to show destination, or a stopping point, and を is more appropriate when you talke about something that happened while you were climbing the mountain.
Ok, I think that covers it.
 

Buntaro

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Hey Toritoribe, which is more common in daily conversation:

Okane ga nai.

Okane wa nai.
 

Zizka

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I'm going to put this in this thread:
#25. ああ、駅ですか?あの橋「①」渡って、最初の信号「②」右「③」曲がって、その道「④」まっすぐ行くと、左のほう「⑤」ありますよ。
を: movement across a space.
に: indicates where s.t. or s.o. moves.
で: a particle which indicates location
を: same thing as ①.
に: indicates the location where something exists.
I'd like to know what I got wrong about ② & ③. The right answer is the ②.
We're still in the same topic so I thought it'd be appropriate.
 

Toritoribe

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Suppose it were a fairy tale and the river itself swam, it'd be then right?
Yes, but personification or metaphor are usually excluded in grammar exercises, I believe.

I couldn't find the English translation for this definition. Could you point it out?
It's the latter "it's equivalent to the English one you already showed", as I wrote.

Yup.
このコンサートは十時「」終わります。
It's exactly the same as the 4th definition in the J-J dictionary I linked above, the same usage as 一日で仕上げる, 明日で夏休みが終わる or 一時間で帰ってきます.

食事をしたあと
In this case, the function of に would be adverbial, right in the sense of: "After eating...", correct?
Not really. に indicates a point in a period when the event/action occurs. The speaker ate dessert sometime after eating the meal. It's close to に in テレビを見ているときに電話が鳴った "The telephone rang while I was watching TV."

But doesn't contrastive mean a topic refocus? I would've said は in this case is a topical marker, not a contrastive one. Of course it depends on the context (what came before).
When the object is topicalized, it always has a nuance of contrastive since it's unusual, unlike は in noun or adjective sentences.

This is from one of the threads you link and I think it's fairly similar to my own definitions of を and で, provided it's correct:
and from the other thread:
Read our discussion done after the Glenn-san's post you quoted. I mean, "just part of the way to get somewhere else" is not the case. It doesn't have the meaning "to get somewhere else" (well, of course it can be used in that context, though).

I'm going to put this in this thread:
#25. ああ、駅ですか?あの橋「①」渡って、最初の信号「②」右「③」曲がって、その道「④」まっすぐ行くと、左のほう「⑤」ありますよ。
を: movement across a space.
に: indicates where s.t. or s.o. moves.
で: a particle which indicates location
を: same thing as ①.
に: indicates the location where something exists.
I'd like to know what I got wrong about ② & ③. The right answer is the ②.
We're still in the same topic so I thought it'd be appropriate.
最初の信号 is the location of the action. You do the action "turning" at the first traffic light. 右 is the direction you turn to.

最初の信号で右に曲がる
to turn right at the first traffic light

Incidentally, 信号曲がる is also acceptable. を is considered to indicate the location of transfer here, as same as 道を歩く.


Hey Toritoribe, which is more common in daily conversation:

Okane ga nai.

Okane wa nai.
The former is 中立叙述の"が", and the latter is the contrastive marker, so it's the former if you mean "as a stand-alone sentence without any context" by "in daily conversation".
 

Buntaro

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The former is 中立叙述の"が", and the latter is the contrastive marker, so it's the former if you mean "as a stand-alone sentence without any context" by "in daily conversation".
Well, okay, let's put some context into it. I walk over to my local 自動販売機 to buy a coke. I put my hand in my pocket. “Okane ga nai! Maita na…” *Buntaro hits himself in the back of the head.*

Is this right for "ga"?
 

Toritoribe

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Right, except a typo "maitta na".:emoji_wink:
 

Zizka

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When the object is topicalized, it always has a nuance of contrastive since it's unusual, unlike は in noun or adjective sentences.
Ah ok, I did not know that.
最初の信号曲がる
to turn right at the first traffic light
で: indicates where an action takes place.
に: indicates a place toward s.o. or s.t. moves.
*
You know what's weird? In A Dictionary of Basic Japanese Grammar, there's no mention of where the action takes place:
upload_2018-7-16_21-32-58.png

upload_2018-7-16_21-33-48.png

I've highlighted the place because that's what I think it refers to.
The book describes that function as:
a particle which indicates location, except for location of existence.
To me, that expresses surprisingly very little. I wonder why there's no mention of where an action takes place which is really the crux of it when you think about it. I'm just puzzled as to why a dictionary about grammar would be so vague in their definition.
 

Zizka

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I'll keep this question in this topic as it's still relevant:
#26.あしたは、学校「①」、加藤先生のセミナー「②
出席しなければな らないから、今夜十時まで「③
」タイプ「
レポート「④
」作ろう。
: location where an action takes place.
を: direct object of 出席. Man this is getting confusing. Technically it *is* a direct object but I somehow doubt that's the right answer.
で: the time limit function
を: direct object of 作ろう.
Comments:

に: 加藤先生のセミナー: What is modified here is the teacher's seminar. The verb of that clause is 出席. When you want to find the direct object of a verb in English, you ask yourself the verb does "what", so attend what➡the seminar. But that's not the right answer here, に is.
に: indicates the purpose when s.o. moves from one place to another.
に: 今夜十時まで: what is modified is "by 10 o'clock". This is temporal. I guess it's a point in time where something takes place. I do think 「」 is a better answer though.
 

Toritoribe

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に: 加藤先生のセミナー: What is modified here is the teacher's seminar. The verb of that clause is 出席. When you want to find the direct object of a verb in English, you ask yourself the verb does "what", so attend what➡the seminar. But that's not the right answer here, に is.
に: indicates the purpose when s.o. moves from one place to another.
Yes, your understanding is correct. 出席する takes the particle に since it has a nuance of direction (or destination). In fact, another verb 出る can be used for "to attend a meeting/class", and I think "the nuance of direction" is clearer with this verb. Incidentally, を is used for the antonym 欠席する "to be absent from a meeting/class".

に: 今夜十時まで: what is modified is "by 10 o'clock". This is temporal. I guess it's a point in time where something takes place. I do think 「」 is a better answer though.
The reason に is used here is because the speaker is referring to a point in time until 10 p.m., i.e., it's OK for 9:30, of course. で indicates the time when something terminates as in your dictionary, i.e., it's the finishing time (e.g. コンサートは10時で終わる, 明日で夏休みが終わる, 仕事は5時で終わる). Thus, the verbs that can be used with this で are limited. For instance, 10時まででやめる is used for the case you stop doing it at 10, but note that this doesn't mean that the action is completed. It means "to stop doing it until 10, whether it's completed or not." In this case, 10時までで is the same as 10時で.
 

Zizka

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十時までに translates as "by ten o'clock".
I thought that was the function of で:
a particle which indicates the time when something terminates or the amount of time a period of activity has taken. (DBJG).
このコンサートは十時で終わります。
This concert will be over at 10 o'clock.
In DBJG, they provide the example above.
So if I wrote:
このコンサートは十時までに終わります。
This concert will be over by 10 o'clock.
Is that accurate?
で indicates the time when something terminates as in your dictionary, i.e., it's the finishing time (e.g. コンサートは10時で終わる, 明日で夏休みが終わる, 仕事は5時で終わる).
So whenever で is used with time, it means the finishing time, correct? If that's the case, it's simple and I understand.
The reason に is used here is because the speaker is referring to a point in time until 10 p.m., i.e., it's OK for 9:30, of course.
Argh, I don't understand this sentence, sorry. I read it multiple times but I don't get it. Do you mean that the speaker is speaking about a precise unmentioned point in time before 10 p.m.?
出席する
So basically, I always need to keep my eyes open for movement verbs as they can take に, へ, を.
Speaking of which. I'm currently working on the next set of exercise. I'll be creating a thread for it but I feel like there are too many of my threads around already.
Since を can mean a starting point when you're talking about movement verbs: a particle that marks the location from which some movement begins.
Isn't that the same thing as から?
A particle which indicates a starting point or a source.
Is it me or do they refer to the exact same thing?
 
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