What's new

using 2 "wo" particles or "no" and "wa" particles

Joined
Dec 11, 2015
Messages
11
konnichiwa!
I've just learnt about the "no particle and now I'm wondering if a sentence such as "now, i'll start doing homework" should be wrriten as "ima shukudai o suru no wa hajimaru" or "ima shukudai o suru o hajimaru"
or neither.

got a feeling that the second one includes incorrect grammar structure and this brings up another question, is it always incorrect using 2 "wo" in a sentence?

(I don't really know kanji yet so please answer in kana/english)
Thanks.
 

mdchachi

Moderator
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Mar 6, 2003
Messages
2,510
Ratings
1 237
The WO goes with the verb so if there are two verbs in a complex sentence you could have two WOs. I think they both could be correct if you put the NO in both and use the correct verb.
ima shukudai o suru no o hajimeru
Of course there are more natural ways to say this so you wouldn't actually hear this in real life.
Specifically, you'd use something like ima shukudai o shihajimeru.

Regarding ima shukudai o suru no wa hajimaru
I'm not sure if this pattern is technically correct and just sounds wrong or is simply wrong. I think the pattern itself can work but it just sounds wrong. First of all GA is more natural than WA here I think. Also this intransitive START usage... It's the verb you'd use to say something like "The race will start." But to use this to say "The doing homework will start" just doesn't sound right.

Are you self-learning? If so I highly recommend not postponing learning hiragana/katakana. It's easier than you think and it will set your learning on a better path. My first structured Japanese class was romaji based. I think they did that to prevent people from getting too discouraged at first but in hindsight I think it was a hindrance.
 

Mike Cash

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう
Joined
Mar 15, 2002
Messages
16,454
Ratings
1,568
Regarding ima shukudai o suru no wa hajimaru
I'm not sure if this pattern is technically correct and just sounds wrong or is simply wrong
You can't do the homework without starting to do the homework, so it is just odd to say it in such a direct translation.

Try a compound verb する+はじめる = しはじめる
Or just しゅくだいをする or しゅくだいをひじめる or しゅくだいにとりかかる, etc.
 

Toritoribe

松葉解禁
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Feb 22, 2008
Messages
14,822
Ratings
2 1,536
konnichiwa!
I've just learnt about the "no particle and now I'm wondering if a sentence such as "now, i'll start doing homework" should be wrriten as "ima shukudai o suru no wa hajimaru" or "ima shukudai o suru o hajimaru"
or neither.

got a feeling that the second one includes incorrect grammar structure and this brings up another question, is it always incorrect using 2 "wo" in a sentence?

(I don't really know kanji yet so please answer in kana/english)
Thanks.
はじまる is intransitive, whereas はじめる is transitive. You have to use the latter one in this case, as already explained. In addition, the volitional form is more appropriate to express the speaker's intention to do.

さあ、しゅくだいをはじめよう
さあ、しゅくだいをしはじめよう

There is no problem to use two をs in a single sentence.
e.g.
あさごはんをたべるのをやめる
stop eating breakfast

The first を indicates the object of たべる, and the second one is for the object of やめる.
 
Joined
Dec 11, 2015
Messages
11
Thanks everyone!
The WO goes with the verb so if there are two verbs in a complex sentence you could have two WOs. I think they both could be correct if you put the NO in both and use the correct verb.
ima shukudai o suru no o hajimeru
Of course there are more natural ways to say this so you wouldn't actually hear this in real life.
Specifically, you'd use something like ima shukudai o shihajimeru.

Regarding ima shukudai o suru no wa hajimaru
I'm not sure if this pattern is technically correct and just sounds wrong or is simply wrong. I think the pattern itself can work but it just sounds wrong. First of all GA is more natural than WA here I think. Also this intransitive START usage... It's the verb you'd use to say something like "The race will start." But to use this to say "The doing homework will start" just doesn't sound right.

Are you self-learning? If so I highly recommend not postponing learning hiragana/katakana. It's easier than you think and it will set your learning on a better path. My first structured Japanese class was romaji based. I think they did that to prevent people from getting too discouraged at first but in hindsight I think it was a hindrance.
Yeash, I'm self-learning and I already know kana (just need to add it in my pc's language setting)
Just started with the grammer so haven't noticed that the verb was intransitive
Thanks for the explanation!
 
Joined
Aug 23, 2015
Messages
41
Ratings
7
Like Mike Cash says...there is correct grammar (strictly speaking) and then there is logic. I've always done better by keeping things simple. The simpler the structure, the easier it is to speak more fluently. Speaking in longer sentences becomes an easy matter of using conjunctions or connectors between these simple sentences.

宿題をはじめよう
しゅくだいをはじまよう

宿題をしよう
すくだいをしよう

宿題をやろう
しゅくだいをやろう

Can become longer sentences...

彼は、「宿題をやろうか」と言ったけど、私は、まだ食事を食べていました。
(or something like that)

The biggest piece of advice that I give when someone asks (or doesn't ask...haha) is to not try and say "everything" at once. That way lies the path of frustration. Say it simply, and then if you need to say more or clarify, you can do that in subsequent sentences as part of the conversation.

Practice short sentences and phrases until you can say them fluently. More important, practice them so you can say them "reflexively." By that I mean without having to even think about it.

Looks like you're doing a great job so far. Keep it up!
 

Mike Cash

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう
Joined
Mar 15, 2002
Messages
16,454
Ratings
1,568
Like Mike Cash says...there is correct grammar (strictly speaking) and then there is logic.
Huh?

Have I said or given the impression that I think the two are in conflict? Or that I advocate a disregard for correct grammar?
 
Last edited:
Joined
Aug 23, 2015
Messages
41
Ratings
7
Not in so many words. I inferred from your response here:

You can't do the homework without starting to do the homework, so it is just odd to say it in such a direct translation.
I also didn't mean to imply conflict between correct grammar and logic.

...することをはじめる...

is correct grammar as far as I can tell, but as you say, there are more logical ways (excuse me, less "odd" ways) to say the same thing.
 
Top