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use of 必要

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How wide is the scope that 必要 is used for?
I would like to know if you can use it with shopping.
In English we might say....
Do we need milk? When we are going to go shopping. Therefore can I use.
買い物に行くと、牛乳を必要と思いますか
Does that convey the same meaning?
よろしくお願いします
 

Mike Cash

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How wide is the scope that 必要 is used for?
I would like to know if you can use it with shopping.
In English we might say....
Do we need milk? When we are going to go shopping. Therefore can I use.
買い物に行くと、牛乳を必要と思いますか
Does that convey the same meaning?
よろしくお願いします
You wouldn't need を there, as it sounds like "thinking of milk" (牛乳を思う). If you did use that, then the preceding 必要 would be adverbial and you would use に instead of the quotative と, making it 牛乳を必要に思う..."thinking milk (into being) necessary".

So first off let's switch that を for a が.....牛乳が必要(だ)と思う "think (that) milk is needed"

The conditional doesn't really work well, as it makes it sound like whether milk is necessary depends on whether you go shopping or not...as if you're asking if the milk will be necessary for something you would do while shopping. Try 買い物に行くなら (if you're going to go shopping) instead.

The next problem is that the conditional opening doesn't really work well with the following question bit....買い物に行くなら、牛乳が必要だと思う? Why not? Examine the situation: Person A is going to sit on his butt and watch television while person B goes to the store. Person A doesn't know if there is (enough) milk or not. What sort of things might Person A say to Person B?

  • 牛乳ある?
  • 牛乳十分?
  • 牛乳十分ある?
  • 牛乳が足りている?
  • 牛乳を見て
  • 牛乳要らない?
  • 牛乳要る?
  • 牛乳をチェックして
  • 牛乳は?
  • 牛乳買わなくていい?
  • 牛乳を忘れないでね
  • 牛乳を忘れずに!
  • 牛乳も!
  • 牛乳は大丈夫?
  • その他
Now, what was the information really being sought in the part where you used a conditional? Just the simple information of whether somebody is going shopping or not.

  • 買い物に行く?
  • 買い物はどうする?
  • 買い物いつ行く?
  • 買い物はこれから?
  • その他
So we might have things like:

  • これから買い物?牛乳を見て。
  • 買い物に行く?ついでに牛乳も買ってきて。
  • 買い物するなら牛乳も頼む。
  • その他
Now, to get to what you actually asked about....必要 is widely used, but for many things and many situations you will find 要る used instead. Of course, they are different parts of speech and sentences used with them are going to look different. 牛乳が必要です and 牛乳が要る。 While they both mean "need", it may help to think of them as "need" (要る) and "NEED!" (必要). The key is contained in the meaning of 必, which if you don't already know you may as well go ahead and learn, as it is is commonly used and is useful as 必ず as well.

Just based on my own experiences playing shopping cart jockey while my wife shops, I tend to hear 要る used much more frequently in that kind of situation than 必要.
 
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You wouldn't need を there, as it sounds like "thinking of milk" (牛乳を思う). If you did use that, then the preceding 必要 would be adverbial and you would use に instead of the quotative と, making it 牛乳を必要に思う..."thinking milk (into being) necessary".

So first off let's switch that を for a が.....牛乳が必要(だ)と思う "think (that) milk is needed"

The conditional doesn't really work well, as it makes it sound like whether milk is necessary depends on whether you go shopping or not...as if you're asking if the milk will be necessary for something you would do while shopping. Try 買い物に行くなら (if you're going to go shopping) instead.

The next problem is that the conditional opening doesn't really work well with the following question bit....買い物に行くなら、牛乳が必要だと思う? Why not? Examine the situation: Person A is going to sit on his butt and watch television while person B goes to the store. Person A doesn't know if there is (enough) milk or not. What sort of things might Person A say to Person B?

  • 牛乳ある?
  • 牛乳十分?
  • 牛乳十分ある?
  • 牛乳が足りている?
  • 牛乳を見て
  • 牛乳要らない?
  • 牛乳要る?
  • 牛乳をチェックして
  • 牛乳は?
  • 牛乳買わなくていい?
  • 牛乳を忘れないでね
  • 牛乳を忘れずに!
  • 牛乳も!
  • 牛乳は大丈夫?
  • その他
Now, what was the information really being sought in the part where you used a conditional? Just the simple information of whether somebody is going shopping or not.

  • 買い物に行く?
  • 買い物はどうする?
  • 買い物いつ行く?
  • 買い物はこれから?
  • その他
So we might have things like:

  • これから買い物?牛乳を見て。
  • 買い物に行く?ついでに牛乳も買ってきて。
  • 買い物するなら牛乳も頼む。
  • その他
Now, to get to what you actually asked about....必要 is widely used, but for many things and many situations you will find 要る used instead. Of course, they are different parts of speech and sentences used with them are going to look different. 牛乳が必要です and 牛乳が要る。 While they both mean "need", it may help to think of them as "need" (要る) and "NEED!" (必要). The key is contained in the meaning of 必, which if you don't already know you may as well go ahead and learn, as it is is commonly used and is useful as 必ず as well.

Just based on my own experiences playing shopping cart jockey while my wife shops, I tend to hear 要る used much more frequently in that kind of situation than 必要.
Hi mikesan,
Thanks for your reply, it is quite in depth so I will need some time to analyse before I can reply properly.
Thank you for your time.
 
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In other words 必要 is closer to necessary where as 要る is closer to simply needing something. 必要 is more emphatic. If you change it to native Japanese it is 必ず要る.

There is a touch of over analysis imho but the original sentence does have grammatical errors which Mike has kindly corrected.
 
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I think a husband and wife might be able to have a conversation in shorthand, where one is about to go to the store, and asks before going out if they need milk, 「これからコンビニに行くけど、牛乳必要?」

But it might be more likely that that you find one saying, 「コンビニ行くけど、牛乳買う必要ある?」

And, as an aside to letslearn, I think its a huge step that at this stage of the game you already recognize that simple constructions in English might not work the same way in Japanese - that word-for-word translation isn't to be trusted.
 
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Thanks everyone for your replys. There is a lot of ways to say this so I really must be careful with the context of the situation.
I really shouldn't have used と. It was not my intention to use a conditional, I really just stuffed up and used the wrong particle. I was actually thinking of "When I go shopping" not "If I go Shopping"
So using your suggestions I could use ..
買い物に行く、牛乳が要りますか I'm going shopping, Do we need milk? I shouldn't have to use 時 to specify "when" do I? like 買い物に行く時は、牛乳が要りますか Thats a bit redundant isn't it.
ありがとうございました
 

Mike Cash

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I shouldn't have to use 時 to specify "when" do I? like 買い物に行く時は、牛乳が要りますか Thats a bit redundant isn't it.
That sounds more like "...whenever I go shopping" (speaking of going shopping in general, not this one particular trip to the store).

Some other ways you might hear it:

  • 牛乳買おうか?
  • 牛乳買おう?
  • 牛乳買って来よう?
  • 牛乳間に合っている?
  • 牛乳間に合う?
 

Toritoribe

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Thanks everyone for your replys. There is a lot of ways to say this so I really must be careful with the context of the situation.
I really shouldn't have used と. It was not my intention to use a conditional, I really just stuffed up and used the wrong particle. I was actually thinking of "When I go shopping" not "If I go Shopping"
So using your suggestions I could use ..
買い物に行く、牛乳が要りますか I'm going shopping, Do we need milk? I shouldn't have to use 時 to specify "when" do I? like 買い物に行く時は、牛乳が要りますか Thats a bit redundant isn't it.
ありがとうございました
You can use けど, not the one for adversative conjunction but for introduction of the main clause.
買い物に行くけど、牛乳要る?
 
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You can use けど, not the one for adversative conjunction but for introduction of the main clause.
買い物に行くけど、牛乳要る?
Why is it needed? What nuance does it give? Is it just for softening the main clause question of do we need milk?
 
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Why is it needed? What nuance does it give? Is it just for softening the main clause question of do we need milk?
けれども doesn't always mean but. It has a function that joins a clause with the main topic you want to talk about.

So there is 2 clauses here. I'm going shopping, and do you need milk. けど here joins the pretext the fact you are going shopping with the fact what you really wanted to ask is do you need milk. Roughly i'm going shopping anyway, so u need milk?

If you swap it. 牛乳が要るけど、買い物に行こうか。it becomes. Well shall we go shopping? I actually needed milk anyway. Emphasis is on the shopping. Getting milk is a bonus.
 
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けれども doesn't always mean but. It has a function that joins a clause with the main topic you want to talk about.

So there is 2 clauses here. I'm going shopping, and do you need milk. けど here joins the pretext the fact you are going shopping with the fact what you really wanted to ask is do you need milk. Roughly i'm going shopping anyway, so u need milk?

If you swap it. 牛乳が要るけど、買い物に行こうか。it becomes. Well shall we go shopping? I actually needed milk anyway. Emphasis is on the shopping. Getting milk is a bonus.
Thanks morphlingsan,
That makes Lot of sense, you explained it so well. Especially swapping it around really showed the emphasis.
 

Toritoribe

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けど sounds awkward in 牛乳が要るけど、買い物に行こうか. けど means "but" here, so it expresses that the purpose to go shopping is not to buy milk, just like 雪が降ってるけど、買い物に行こうか. It should be 牛乳が要るから、買い物に行こうか. 牛乳が要るんだけど、買い物に行かない? works well if you want to use けど. The meaning is more close to a request 買い物に行って in this case. (Expressions are so delicate, aren't they?;))
 
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けど sounds awkward in 牛乳が要るけど、買い物に行こうか. けど means "but" here, so it expresses that the purpose to go shopping is not to buy milk, just like 雪が降ってるけど、買い物に行こうか. It should be 牛乳が要るから、買い物に行こうか. 牛乳が要るんだけど、買い物に行かない? works well if you want to use けど. The meaning is more close to a request 買い物に行って in this case. (Expressions are so delicate, aren't they?;))
Thank you toritoribesan,
I think I'll stick to 買い物に行く、牛乳が要りますか until I am more confident I understand the differences.
Talking about expressions, the expression その上. Sometimes uses で others times not. A couple of examples are... (these examples are from Jgram)
この料理はおいしい。其の上安い。
This dish is delicious. In addition, it is cheap.
其の上での決定です。
Moreover it is decided.
Why does one need で and the other not? Is it just because it is being used as a conjunction? I hear その上で a lot on the news.

よろしくお願いします
 
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(Expressions are so delicate, aren't they?;))
Tell me about it. Still haven't quite gotten the hang of のだ yet. Thanks for the explanation :). I had a hunch when I translated it English that it didn't really mean the way I planned to.

A better example of the main topic market would be xx会社の者ですけれども、部長様はいっらしゃいますか。or つまらない物ですけれども、どうぞお受け取りください。 in both cases が and けれども are interchangeable.
 
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Thank you toritoribesan,
I think I'll stick to 買い物に行く、牛乳が要りますか until I am more confident I understand the differences.
Still can't use that since you can't end a sentence with 終止形. Just use から. Less ambiguous, easier to handle.

As for そのうえで, you got any more context around that sentence.
 
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Still can't use that since you can't end a sentence with 終止形. Just use から. Less ambiguous, easier to handle.

As for そのうえで, you got any more context around that sentence.
No I just got those sentences off JGram. I don't know the term 終止形. But I hear the そのうえで version a lot on the news in context of "more over" and was wondering why the で?
 

Toritoribe

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Talking about expressions, the expression その上. Sometimes uses で others times not. A couple of examples are... (these examples are from Jgram)
この料理はおいしい。其の上安い。
This dish is delicious. In addition, it is cheap.
其の上での決定です。
Moreover it is decided.
Why does one need で and the other not? Is it just because it is being used as a conjunction? I hear その上で a lot on the news.
で shows that it is talking about in a situation. そのうえで安い means that the dish is reasonable in a situation "the dish is delicious".
e.g.
彼女は結婚していた。そのうえでなお彼は彼女が好きだった。
 
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で shows that it is talking about in a situation. そのうえで安い means that the dish is reasonable in a situation "the dish is delicious".
e.g.
彼女は結婚していた。そのうえでなお彼は彼女が好きだった。
Thank you everyone.
 
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