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The 取り prefix

ArthurK

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I'm having trouble finding a resource which could explain to me how to use the 取り prefix. I understand, for example, 取り出す (to take out). However I have absolutely no idea why you would add 取り to 替える to make 取り替える. Does it add the same extra meaning to 替える as it does to 消す in 取り消す? I realise that 消す means to "put out/make something disappear", but when you add 取り to it, you suddenly get "to cancel/to withdraw." I fail to generalise this...

Thanks in advance!
 

Mike Cash

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替える
取り替える
入れ替える
張り替える
踏み替える
着替える
付け替える
差し替える
吹き替える
履き替える


消す
取り消す
もみ消す
打ち消す
吹き消す

Etc etc etc

Should be self-explanatory.
 

killerinsidee

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取り is actually 取る (to take, to pick up, etc.). Not to bother you with too many details, it's basically just two verbs combined into something called compound verb. 取る + 出す = take + out → 取り出す = take out. Compound verbs are an extremely common thing, just learn them as you go. 取り消す = take + erase = cancel, take back, revoke, etc.

Note: Some of them are idiomatic, etc. so deconstructing them won't help you figure them out. In those cases it's best to learn them as is.
 
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nekojita

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Japanese is agglutinative, which basically means it aint never met a suffix it don't like. ;)

Rather than trying to find a general rule, you'd be better off with a good dictionary with a few example sentences. 取り替える to me indicates a swap (often of an old thing for a new, replacement thing), 替える is somewhat broader.

Can you generalise these? (I'm seriously asking)
take-out (food)
take out (for dinner and a movie)
take out ("kill")
take in (a child)
take in (tailoring)
take in (deceive)
 

Mike Cash

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Building on Nekojita's post, you should try to explain to Japanese sometime why we say:

Go to
Go by
Go over
Go under
Go through
Go around
Etc

instead of using unique verbs for each one.

Or why we are content to use one word for "wear" and feel no need to distinguish by using:

着る
履く
かぶる
はめる
締める
する

depending on the article and what part of the body it goes on.

Or why they have a zillion pronouns and can totally avoid their use while we have a tiny handful and can neither avoid them nor feel a need to.

Or why they've been around so long yet never felt a need to adopt words to distinguish between "leg" and "foot".

Or why they call what is actually lightning by the word which means thunder instead.

Be sure to tell them in return why we park in the driveway and drive on the parkway. Or why we smell with our noses and run with our feet but our noses run and our feet smell.

The point is....while sometimes trying to figure out why may be an interesting and amusing diversion, it isn't always a useful weapon in your language learning arsenal. Sometimes it can just bog you down and you're better off just accepting things as they are and hoping further exposure will provide clarity or at least dull the feeling that something is odd to the point you no longer get hung up on it.
 
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ArthurK

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Japanese is agglutinative, which basically means it aint never met a suffix it don't like. ;)

Rather than trying to find a general rule, you'd be better off with a good dictionary with a few example sentences. 取り替える to me indicates a swap (often of an old thing for a new, replacement thing), 替える is somewhat broader.

Can you generalise these? (I'm seriously asking)
take-out (food)
take out (for dinner and a movie)
take out ("kill")
take in (a child)
take in (tailoring)
take in (deceive)
That is some fancy word. I'll be sure to impress my friends with it :D Can I generalise that? Well... We can say that the word "take" indicates a change of abstract (or concrete) context. In the case of "out" the original context is emphasised, while in the case of "in", the resulting context is emphasised.

I. Take out (food)
Original context: Restaurant

II. Take out (for dinner, movie)
Original context: Home (You transfer someone from their original context into the context of a restaurant/movie theatre)

III. Take out (kill)
Original context: Life (The resulting context in this case is, of course, death. Hence why I stated that the context can be abstract)

IV. Take in (child)
Resulting context: Home (The home of the subject of the sentence)

I'm erm... I'm not actually English, so I'm not quite sure what the other two examples mean, I've never met them before. However, my guess is that my rationale doesn't apply to them... I wish I knew some linguistics, this is actually some interesting stuff.
 

ArthurK

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Building on Nekojita's post, you should try to explain to Japanese sometime why we say:

Go to
Go by
Go over
Go under
Go through
Go around
Etc

instead of using unique verbs for each one.

Or why we are content to use one word for "wear" and feel no need to distinguish by using:

着る
履く
かぶる
はめる
締める
する

depending on the article and what part of the body it goes on.

Or why they have a zillion pronouns and can totally avoid their use while we have a tiny handful and can neither avoid them nor feel a need to.

Or why they've been around so long yet never felt a need to adopt words to distinguish between "leg" and "foot".

Or why they call what is actually lightning by the word which means thunder instead.

Be sure to tell them in return why we park in the driveway and drive on the parkway. Or why we smell with our noses and run with our feet but our noses run and our feet smell.

The point is....while sometimes trying to figure out why may be an interesting and amusing diversion, it isn't always a useful weapon in your language learning arsenal. Sometimes it can just bog you down and you're better off just accepting things as they are and hoping further exposure will provide clarity or at least dull the feeling that something is odd to the point you no longer get hung up on it.
Yeah... I guess it's another case of 習うより慣れ then. Thank you for this post!
 
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