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please check my understanding of 壊す

letslearn

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Hi guys,
I have always had trouble with verb conjugation and adjectival phrases.
Have I got the understanding of some of 壊すverb conjunctions in the followings statements?
Also is my use of the present progressive form correct for the use of an adjective?
My interpretation of 壊す is damaged, so I will put my translation after the statement.
私は注意しなければ、花瓶を壊す。 I will damage the vase if I'm not careful.
私は花瓶を壊した。 I damaged the vase.
花花瓶を壊された。 The vase was damaged.
花瓶が誰かに壊させた。 Somebody damaged the vase.
壊している花瓶がある。 There is a damaged vase.
今まで、水で壊している電子機器がありません。 Up until now, there has been no electronic equipment damaged by water.


よろしくお願いします
 

Mike Cash

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You'd have a much easier time grasping all this if you weren't trying to grasp too many thing at once and way too early in your studies to boot. Aren't you using a textbook?
 

letslearn

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You'd have a much easier time grasping all this if you weren't trying to grasp too many thing at once and way too early in your studies to boot. Aren't you using a textbook?
Yes I am but I am trying to grasp the meaning of causative, passive etc. From the English meanings, I know you have often told me not to try to translate directly from English but not sure of another way.
For example the statement 水で電子機器を壊されませんでした。
the electronic equipment was not damaged by water. Is it the same as 水で壊している電子機器がありません?
 

Mike Cash

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You really can't wait for your text to introduce this? You really ought to have at least covered transitive and intransitive verb pairs first.

Out of curiosity, which text are you using and how far into it are you?
 
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letslearn

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I have covered TVerbs and ITVerbs. 壊す is a transitive verb. My text is 皆の日本語。 I know I'm jumping ahead, but how it came about was because, yesterday in my job (electronics communications) some of our equipment in located in an telephone exchange was on the verge of being effected by water ingress from a particularly bad storm and I was thinking to myself, how could I report the situation (in Japanese) that none of our equipment as yet was affected. That's the reason for my post. It was really just me trying by myself to understand the meaning.
Obviously not that way, but I like trying.
 

Mike Cash

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Then the verb you wanted was 壊れる not 壊す. Go back and review transitive/intransitive again.
 

letslearn

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So 壊れる is an intransitive verb.
And it doesn't need a direct object. It uses the が subject marker.
今まで、水で電子機器が壊れません。
Is that the same as
今まで、水で壊れている電子機器がありません?
 

killerinsidee

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So 壊れる is an intransitive verb.
And it doesn't need a direct object. It uses the が subject marker.
今まで、水で電子機器が壊れません。
Is that the same as
今まで、水で壊れている電子機器がありません?
Considering what you wrote in the post above (explaining the storm situation); I don't think you'd want to use "今まで", maybe use something like 今のところ. 「今のところ、水で壊れている電子機器はありません。」. Keep in mind that if you were to report some information to the "higher-ups", you would probably need to say/write it in a bit more polite way, but I wouldn't like to confuse you further with that if you're early in your studies.
 
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letslearn

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Considering what you wrote in the post above (explaining the storm situation); I don't think you'd want to use "今まで", maybe use something like 今のところ. 「今のところ、水で壊れている電子機器はありません。」. Keep in mind that if you were to report some information to the "higher-ups", you would pneed to say/write it in a bit more polite way, but I wouldn't like to confuse you further with that if you're early in your studies.
Thank you killerinsideesan,
I'm not in a situation that would require me to do so, but as you know some times your hopes out pace your ability. That's why these forums are so great. They allow you practice concepts encouragingly.
皆さん、ありがとうございました
 

Mike Cash

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You're doing the right thing, contemplating "what-if" situations and how you'd handle them. It's great practice for real life.

But can you think of some ways you could report that there is no damage using only grammar points you have already learned? It can be done; give it a try.
 

letslearn

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You're doing the right thing, contemplating "what-if" situations and how you'd handle them. It's great practice for real life.

But can you think of some ways you could report that there is no damage using only grammar points you have already learned? It can be done; give it a try.
Hi mikesan,
How is this? I'm using killerindideesan's recommendation and grammar I already know. I'm using the verb 受ける to receive.
今のところ電子機器は水の影響を受けません.
 

Mike Cash

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Understandable, but should be 受けていません

How about something using です or ありません?
 

Toritoribe

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Sounds like you are in danger from flood water...
 

Toritoribe

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The reader/listener doesn't get information that you are worrying about the equipment from that sentence. You give up telling it, then?
 

letslearn

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The reader/listener doesn't get information that you are worrying about the equipment from that sentence. You give up telling it, then?
Now this is tricky for me.
Would
今のところは、水で被害の電子機器がありません.
Mean there is no damaged equipment by water, but there could be damaged equipment for other reason?

Then if it is understood that there was a leak from the storm.
今のところは、水の被害の電子機器がありません。
There in no water damage to the equipment at this time.
 

Mike Cash

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As a purely practical matter, though, nothing is going to beat 大丈夫です for clarity, brevity, and simplicity.
 

letslearn

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Yes that's right if I was asked "is the equipment alright?"
はい大丈夫です。
But if I'm asked what's happening?
水が天井から漏れているだけど
今のところ電子機器は水の影響を受けていません.
 

Mike Cash

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Yes that's right if I was asked "is the equipment alright?"
はい大丈夫です。
But if I'm asked what's happening?
水が天井から漏れているだけど
今のところ電子機器は水の影響を受けていません.
As you astutely note, anticipating potential questions is an equal part of this very useful learning tool.

I would ask that you share with us a few different ways you might anticipate they would ask what's happening. Bonus points if you come up with one that can't be answered with 大丈夫です! in a pinch.
 

Toritoribe

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水が天井から漏れているだけど
今のところ電子機器は水の影響を受けていません.
Very close, but ~だけど can't be attached to verbs or i-adjectives.
 

letslearn

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Yeah sorry I quite forgot.
Just to correct my statement from toritoribesans advice.
水が天井から漏れているけど
今のところ電子機器は水の影響を受けていません.

Some questions I usually get asked when something like this happens are.

何が原因ですか. what is the cause?
ビルの屋根は雨漏りがしますか。does the building have a leaky roof?
雨漏りを直すことができますか。 can the leak be repaired?
直すのにどのぐらい時間がかかりますか。how long will the repairs take?

Most of these questions need an a more detailed reponse then just... yes, no, fine etc.

雨漏りを直すことができますか is an exception because all I need to know is whether it can be fixed.
If it can't, can I try and ask what are the alternatives?
選択は何ですか
 
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