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past + としても VS plain form + としても ・ 経つ VS 経った ・ の + omission ・ NはNで

raikado

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Hello,

1) たとえあと少しで私が消えてしまったとしても 今のままでもう十分満足かなと思ってた
Would this sentence be different if it was 消えてしまうとしても? And in general, are there any rules that say when to use present or past?
Looking at some examples, I can't find any pattern.
    • ある教授は、たとえアレックスが言葉を使っているとしても、それを言語と呼ぶのは間違いだといっている。 One professor says that even if Alex is using words, it's wrong to call it a language.
    • この件については、危険はたとえあるとしてもほとんどない。 There is little, if any, risk in this matter.
    • それは、たとえ間違いをおかしたとしても、一生懸命に頑張るということです。 It means trying hard, even if we make mistakes.
    • たとえ、太陽が西から昇ったとしても、彼女は決心を変えないだろう。 Were the sun to rise in the west, she would not change her resolution.
    • たとえお金持ちだとしても、彼には金をやらない。 If I were rich, I would not give money to him.
    • たとえその興行がうまくいくとしても、その計画をやめることを主張します。 Even if the performance is good, I still say we drop the project.
    • たとえそんな人はいるとしてもごく少ない。 There are few, if any, such men.
http://www.tanos.co.uk/jlpt/skills/vocab/sentences/?vocabid=86643

Would these sentences be any different if we were to change the tense before としても?

2)A: そういえば・・・もう私がゾンビになって10日ぐらい経つんですよねー・・・
B: そっか・・・もうそんな経つんだよなー
Is there any difference between using 経つ and using 経った? It seems like 経つ can be used instead of 経った and still mean "(time) passed" instead of "will pass".

3) A: もっもっもしや れあサマと蘭子先輩って ラ・・・ライバル関係とかだったりします?
蘭子:んー? まぁ 私が負けてるけどォー
Does she omit 方 after の?

そんな状況の中 ふるや家の家事全版をクールにこなす者あり
そう・・・ちひろの妹・・・
Here, is 者 omitted?

4)れあはれあで 朝から少し元気がないように見えるし・・・女心はわからん・・・!!
The literal translation for this would be "Rea is Rea, and it seems like she hasn't been feeling well since morning... I don't understand women...!!". "Rea is Rea" could be replaced with "Rea needs special care" (or something like that).
So in general "NはNで” translates as "N is N and...", and then the meaning depends heavily on the context, right?

Is this true for this sentence as well? さて、こっちはこっちで・・・おぜん立てをしておくか・・・
"Well then, here is here...I guess I will make the preparations"
The context is that the speaker and his friend are preparing to execute a plan. He talks to his friend on the phone. His friend tells him that the preparations are done over there. Then he hangs up, and the speaker says this sentence to himself.
My guess is that he saying something like "さて、そっちがそっちでこっちはこっちで・・・おぜん立てをしておくか・・・". >>> "There is there, and here is here, so I better start the preparations." >>> "The preparations over there are done, but here is not there, so I should do my part here too"
 

Toritoribe

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1)
There are several different conditions in your examples.

ある教授は、たとえアレックスが言葉を使っているとしても、それを言語と呼ぶのは間違いだといっている。
This is talking about a current state, so the past 使っていた can't be used here. 言葉を使っていたとしても、それを言語と呼ぶのは/呼んだのは間違いだったといっている。 is valid since this is a past event.
It's the same also for この件については、危険はたとえあるとしてもほとんどない。 and たとえそんな人はいるとしてもごく少ない。, the former one is not a state, though.

それは、たとえ間違いをおかしたとしても、一生懸命に頑張るということです。
The main clause is talking about what we should do after we made a mistake, so the meaning is difference if it's 間違いをおかすとしても, which expresses what we should do whether what we will do/what we are doing will be a mistake or not.

たとえ、太陽が西から昇ったとしても、彼女は決心を変えないだろう。
たとえお金持ちだとしても、彼には金をやらない。

These are conditional for "contrary-to-fact(反事実)", therefore the past form is used.

たとえその興行がうまくいくとしても、その計画をやめることを主張します。
Unlike the example 間違いをおかしたとしても, the main clause expresses an event before the conditional clause (計画 --> 興行).

Now you can get what category たとえあと少しで私が消えてしまったとしても 今のままでもう十分満足かなと思ってた belongs to?

2)
In your example, yes, 経つ and 経った are interchangeable.

3)
Maybe yes, or maybe it means "my one". I don't know the context at all, so I can't judge which interpretation is correct.
I can't understand your second question.

4)
~は~で is an emphasized form of ~は as the contrastive marker. こっちはこっちで has a nuance "independently", though.
 

raikado

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1) I think it's in the first category, in past tense. And と思ってた only covers 今のままでもう十分満足かな.
If I want to say what I think now, then I would use present tense, right? たとえあと少しで私が消えてしまうとしても 今のままでもう十分満足かな。

たとえお金持ちだとしても、彼には金をやらない。
These are conditional for "contrary-to-fact(反事実)", therefore the past form is used.
You said here that the past form is used, but isn't お金持ちだ the present form?

2) Thanks!
3)Sorry.
A: もっもっもしや れあサマと蘭子先輩って ラ・・・ライバル関係とかだったりします?
蘭子:んー? まぁ 私が負けてるけどォー
Here the context is that 蘭子 and れあ like the same boy, and A figures this out and asks 蘭子 if they are rivals in love.

The context for the second case is that it's the beginning of a chapter centered around ちひろ's sister. The narrator makes a quick summary. ふるや is the name of the family.
ここ数日で色々な出来事が起こっているふるや家
そんな状況の中 ふるや家の家事全版をクールにこなす者あり
そう・・・ちひろの妹・・・
I was asking what should come after the last のin ちひろの妹の.

4)れあはれあで 朝から少し元気がないように見える。
So this sentence goes something like this れあは朝から少し元気がないように見えるけど、他の人は朝から元気であるように見える。>>>"It seems like Rea hasn't been feeling well since morning, but other people did feel well."
こっちはこっちで has a nuance "independently", though.
What exactly do you mean by "independently"? Like "with no connection to what my friend did over there"?

Looking at this example from http://eow.alc.co.jp/search?q=これはこれで&ref=sa
弟がこのポケット無しの方を欲しいと言っているので、これはこれで受け取っておこうと思います。
Since my brother wants the one without pockets, I think I will keep it
これはこれで受け取っておこうと思います。 is equivalent to "これは受け取っておこうと思いますけど、他のは受け取らない"?

Lastly, about the first 3 sentences from here.... http://eow.alc.co.jp/search?q=それはそれで
  • それはそれでいいものだ
    have one's own beauty
  • それはそれでやはり美しい
    be still beautiful in one's own way
  • それはそれで楽しい
    be fun on one's own
Is this それはそれで construction similar to what we discussed so far?
These sentences are translated as if they were structured like this 「それは」 「それでいい」ものだ >>> This, by itself, is a good thing.
 

Toritoribe

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1)
たとえあと少しで私が消えてしまうとしても、今のままでもう十分満足かなと思ってた is also valid and the meaning is the same as the original.
たとえあと少しで私が消えてしまうとしても、今のままでもう十分満足かなと思う is valid but the meaning is changed.
たとえあと少しで私が消えてしまったとしても、今のままでもう十分満足かなと思う is also different from the original.

hint: あと少しで is the key.
You said here that the past form is used, but isn't お金持ちだ the present form?
Oops, sorry. My bad. I seemed to read it as たとえお金持ちだったとしても.

3)
Yes, that's a very colloquial/slangy expression of 私の方が.
ふるや is the name of the family.
Yes, that's obvious from ふるや家.
The point I wanted to know was that which one クールにこなす者 referred to; the sister or someone in the sister's side(e.g. maid, steward or servant). You say that's the former, thus, what is omitted there is the name of the sister.

4)
No. I'm pretty sure that the writer was talking about someone else than れあ in the preceding sentence(s). Then, they changed the topic to れあ, emphasizing "as for れあ".
What exactly do you mean by "independently"? Like "with no connection to what my friend did over there"?
That's right.
弟がこのポケット無しの方を欲しいと言っているので、これはこれで受け取っておこうと思います。
Since my brother wants the one without pockets, I think I will keep it
これはこれで受け取っておこうと思います。 is equivalent to "これは受け取っておこうと思いますけど、他のは受け取らない"?
Similar to the above, the speaker decides to buy/receive another (probably) clothes, and says they are going to buy/receive ポケット無しの方, too. I.e., これはこれで can be considered "これも + independently" here.
Is this それはそれで construction similar to what we discussed so far?
Yes.
These sentences are translated as if they were structured like this 「それは」 「それでいい」ものだ >>> This, by itself, is a good thing.
I would say それはそのままでいい for that case.
 

raikado

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1)The sentence is still divided like this, right? たとえあと少しで私が消えてしまうとしても、「今のままでもう十分満足かな」と思ってた.
Hmm, does あと少しで refer to the ”あと少しで from back then"(basically, the first part is spoken as if the speaker was in the past)? And I guess it is understandable that it's the one in the past due to the second sentence being in the past as well. It should work with 翌日 as well. These sentences should both have the same meaning.
たとえ翌日私が消えてしまったとしても、今のままでもう十分満足かなと思ってた
たとえ翌日私が消えてしまうとしても、今のままでもう十分満足かなと思ってた

But I don't think it works with 明日.
たとえ明日私が消えてしまったとしても、今のままでもう十分満足かなと思ってた。This one should be grammatically wrong due to 明日私が消えてしまった
たとえ明日私が消えてしまうとしても、今のままでもう十分満足かなと思ってた。This one shouldn't make sense.
I think it works in these cases though :
たとえ明日私が消えてしまうとしても、今のままでもう十分満足かなと思う. I think this is in the first category (ある教授は、たとえアレックスが言葉を使っているとしても、それを言語と呼ぶのは間違いだといっている。)
たとえ明日私が消えてしまったとしても、今のままでもう十分満足かなと思う. And this is in the third one (たとえ、太陽が西から昇ったとしても、彼女は決心を変えないだろう。)

たとえお金持ちだとしても、彼には金をやらない。
If this sentence is not in the category "contrary to the fact" than where does it fit?
My idea is that it's in the first category >>> "Even if I am rich (I might be rich, I might not be, who knows) , I won't give him money". This could be an answer to someone saying "I know you are actually rich, so give him some money". Although it doesn't fit the given translation now.

As for 3 and 4, I understand them now. Thank you!
 

Toritoribe

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The first clause たとえあと少しで私が消えてしまうとしても/しまったとしても is ALWAYS interpreted as the writer's thought at that time, i.e., the structure of the sentence is 「たとえあと少しで私が消えてしまうとしても/しまったとしても、今のままでもう十分満足かな」と思う/思ってた. あと少しで shows that 私が消えてしまう/しまった is future anyway, so there is no significant difference between these two forms. The probability of 消えてしまったとしても sounds to be lower than 消えてしまうとしても, though. Therefore たとえ明日私が消えてしまうとしても and たとえ明日私が消えてしまったとしても are both valid.

Hmmm, thinking again about たとえお金持ちだとしても、彼には金をやらない。, this clause seems like "contrary-to-the-act". たとえお金持ちだったとしても、彼には金をやらない。 would be acceptable but 金持ちだった is more likely for the past tense たとえお金持ちだったとしても、彼には金をやらなかった。.
 

raikado

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I misunderstood it from the beginning then. All along I thought that the sentence was structured like たとえあと少しで私が消えてしまったとしても 「今のままでもう十分満足かな」と思ってた.
Now it is easy to understand. Thank you!
 
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