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National Health Insurance debt

Am I in big trouble?

  • Yes

    Votes: 3 42.9%
  • No

    Votes: 4 57.1%

  • Total voters
    7
If you can find any hard evidence that tax and insurance liabilities aren't waived when you leave Japan and your visa expires, and they will/can chase you for the payments if and when you return to Japan on a new visa, then post it.

So I'm supposed to provide you with evidence of the nonexistence of something which supports your assertion rather than you providing evidence of the existence of something which supports your assertion?

The only reasonable explanation I can think of for that is that the payment is cancelled when your visa and residency expires. Another explanation could be that the payment is maintained in the system as required to be paid, but there is no procedure to alert your previous city office that you've returned to Japan, but that seems absurd. Why would they maintain a demand for payment but not have a system that alerted them that you'd returned to Japan?

Why do you think I asked you the specific time period you were talking about? Prior to the introduction of the My Number system Japan's bureaucratic left hand had no way of knowing what its right hand was up to; there was no easy method for cross-checking or sharing information between bureaucracies.
 
So I'm supposed to provide you with evidence of the nonexistence of something which supports your assertion rather than you providing evidence of the existence of something which supports your assertion?

No. If you just calm down and take a few deep breaths for a minute, and compose yourself, you'll see that I was asking whether there was any information that demonstrates that the procedure for someone who leaves Japan with outstanding tax and insurance payments is to scrub such payments when that person's visa and residency expires.

It's not a massive deal, I was just wondering. Having looked through the information on a few websites of ward and city offices, they don't say anything about any procedures if you're unable to make any outstanding payments before you leave.

Why do you think I asked you the specific time period you were talking about? Prior to the introduction of the My Number system Japan's bureaucratic left hand had no way of knowing what its right hand was up to; there was no easy method for cross-checking or sharing information between bureaucracies.

Again, calm down mate. It's not the end of the world. It was prior to the introduction of My Number.

Hope that's eased the stress for you.
 
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If you can find any hard evidence that tax and insurance liabilities aren't waived when you leave Japan and your visa expires, and they will/can chase you for the payments if and when you return to Japan on a new visa, then post it.

No. If you just calm down and take a few deep breaths for a minute, and compose yourself, you'll see that I was asking whether there was any information that demonstrates that the procedure for someone who leaves Japan with outstanding tax and insurance payments is to scrub such payments when that person's visa and residency expires.

Don't attribute my reading your demand that I prove a negative as a demand that I prove a negative to a need to "calm down and take a few deep breaths" on my part.

If you expect people to read something as a question, then phrase it as a question.

Again, calm down mate. It's not the end of the world. It was prior to the introduction of My Number.

Drop the "calm down" sh!t; I was then and still am a placid as a clam.

While you are to be commended for adding appropriate qualifying expressions to your earlier statements, one of the worst traditions of gaijin life in Japan is generation upon generation of gaijins passing along misinformation, myths, and just general uninformed hogwash to one another....and each succeeding generation unquestioningly swallowing it whole and passing it along to the next batch.
 
Don't attribute my reading your demand that I prove a negative as a demand that I prove a negative to a need to "calm down and take a few deep breaths" on my part.

If you expect people to read something as a question, then phrase it as a question.



Drop the "calm down" sh!t; I was then and still am a placid as a clam.

While you are to be commended for adding appropriate qualifying expressions to your earlier statements, one of the worst traditions of gaijin life in Japan is generation upon generation of gaijins passing along misinformation, myths, and just general uninformed hogwash to one another....and each succeeding generation unquestioningly swallowing it whole and passing it along to the next batch.

Yes, you sound really placid and calm mate, an oasis of peace and tranquility...

I know where you're coming from about mis-information. That's why I deliberately qualified it with those expressions to show that it shouldn't be taken as 100% conclusive fact (thanks for appreciating that). If readers decide to take it at face value, what can I do.

The other poster above inferred that I was deliberately trying to evade payments, and should be banned from Japan for not paying up. I think I've made it clear that I did all I could to pay it. When I originally left Japan, I actually asked my city office if I could make the payment by international bank transfer to them after I returned home, but they couldn't do that. I was worried as I was thinking of coming back to Japan, and wanted to pay up so as to avoid being chased up for the payment at a later date but with penalties on top.

As they didn't chase me up for it when I returned, I let it drop. When I returned, I took out a private health insurance, at the encouragement of my new employer (a well-known language school chain). That could be another reason why they didn't chase it up. Had I taken out national health insurance again, maybe it would have registered with them and they'd have sent requests for the payment, who knows. (And before somebody sh!ts down my neck for that, city office asked me whether I was going to take out national health insurance, and when I said I had private health insurance, they said that was OK.)
 
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Thanks for the details of your experience. It's good info. Now we just need to wait to see the experience of the next person who does this after the My Number system was in place.
 
The situation I'm
Yes grasshopper, I understand the situation you are talking about. What I am telling you is: if leaving due to an expired visa was a valid way of clearing your debts, no foreigner would ever pay taxes here.

Debts aren't magically waived due to someone leaving the country. The municipality you resided in does not have a hot-line to the immigration department, and so you are not stopped at Narita just because you have accrued a debt in your local city or ward.

What astonishes me (although, I suppose it shouldn't) is the fact that you think it is entirely reasonable that your debt would be cancelled simply because your visa expired and you left the country. You say you acted in good faith; to my mind, acting in good faith would have meant going back to your old ward and paying your unpaid taxes, like you said you would. Call me old-fashioned.
 
Yes grasshopper, I understand the situation you are talking about. What I am telling you is: if leaving due to an expired visa was a valid way of clearing your debts, no foreigner would ever pay taxes here.

Debts aren't magically waived due to someone leaving the country. The municipality you resided in does not have a hot-line to the immigration department, and so you are not stopped at Narita just because you have accrued a debt in your local city or ward.

What astonishes me (although, I suppose it shouldn't) is the fact that you think it is entirely reasonable that your debt would be cancelled simply because your visa expired and you left the country. You say you acted in good faith; to my mind, acting in good faith would have meant going back to your old ward and paying your unpaid taxes, like you said you would. Call me old-fashioned.

What amazes me (though I suppose it shouldn't) is that you're so fascinated by this. Do you have nothing else to do with your time than pore over people's personal financial business, which they've offered up in good faith, and try and trip them up at every turn? Have you considered how sad that is, or are you beyond caring?

Regarding going back to the old city office, as I've already explained, and you've obviously had trouble reading and getting your brain cell around, my understanding when they didn't contact me with a demand for payment was that it must have been cancelled. It wouldn't make any sense for them to keep an outstanding payment from an ex-resident on file as being required to still be paid, but to not have a system where they were alerted as and when that ex-resident returned to Japan.

Do try to keep up old bean.
 
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I understand (I think) that you are trying to be funny, but you are not the first person on these boards to proclaim that you are not obliged to pay any taxes until the authorities ask you for them. It is an exceedingly puerile argument.

As for your other comments as to why people should offer advice on a Forum intended to give advice, I am speechless.
 
I understand (I think) that you are trying to be funny, but you are not the first person on these boards to proclaim that you are not obliged to pay any taxes until the authorities ask you for them. It is an exceedingly puerile argument.

As for your other comments as to why people should offer advice on a Forum intended to give advice, I am speechless.

Judging from your performance on this thread, you're the last person to be lecturing people on puerile arguments ;-)
 
A couple more final things to add to this (I think it's virtually been done to death):

1. When I went in to my city office to settle up before I left the country, I assumed that you would only pay residency tax and health insurance up until the month you left. It was only then that I discovered from them that you're required to pay the rest of the amount you owe for that particular tax/insurance year. Had I known about those rules sooner, I would have made arrangements to have the money to pay up by the time I left.

I know ignorance is no defence, but ignorance of tax and insurance regulations and requirements happens often and trips people up often.

2. Had I been asked for that payment when I returned to Japan 3 years later, there probably would have been penalties on it. That is another reason that would put someone off contacting their old city office to find out whether they were still required to pay it, particularly if they weren't contacted by them first.

To those people passing judgement on this matter, ask yourselves whether you can truly put your hand on your heart and say that you have never done this sort of thing, or entertained it, or wouldn't have entertained it, or actually done it, had you been in my situation.

Judge not lest ye be judged. Fess up to your own crimes first before you start judging others, if you've got the guts.
 
Thanks for the details of your experience. It's good info. Now we just need to wait to see the experience of the next person who does this after the My Number system was in place.

All the info I've read says that you will keep the same My Number permanently, even if you leave and come back to Japan. They're going to need a system of verification though if someone enters Japan to work on a "clean" passport with no evidence of any previous stays in Japan, and says they don't have a My Number and have never lived in Japan before. They're going to have to store your passport details, like your hometown, date of birth, photo, maybe your fingerprints too, with your My Number, and have a system for cross-checking that if it's going to work.
 
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...fingerprints...

Sure, that and other biometrics. Gov'ts have known for quite a while that spies are "use once and discard", since a new passport & disguise won't fool the other guys. And now it's applicable to everybody.

And pre 9/11, having to 'submit' to giving a single fingerprint here as a part of the residency process was oh-such-a-thing...! Now it's fingerprints and candid camera for everyone on every entry.
 
Just to add to this that, when I registered with my new city office when I returned to Japan (which city was actually adjacent to the previous city where I was living, to whose city office I owed the payment), a year after my previous visa expired, I was ready to make the payment and expected that they would ask me for the it, but they didn't.

The only reasonable explanation I can think of for that is that the payment is cancelled when your visa and residency expires. Another explanation could be that the payment is maintained in the system as required to be paid, but there is no procedure to alert your previous city office that you've returned to Japan, but that seems absurd. Why would they maintain a demand for payment but not have a system that alerted them that you'd returned to Japan?

Why would you believe that one city would know about depts to another city? I'm sorry but even in the US I wouldn't expect one municipality to know about some persons dept to another one or try to collect it. You don't owe it to the municipality you currently reside in so why would they try to collect it or even know about it?

It seems like you have consciously decided to not check with your previous city to see if the debt is still outstanding and are using that lack of evidence as proof that it was cancelled. Why don't you find out for sure and run over to your previous city's office and inquire about whether your debt still remains? If it doesn't and they tell you they cancelled it then you know for sure and have a clear conscious, if they tell you that it remains and you still need to pay it, then pay it and you will have a clear conscious. Either way you will come away with a clear conscious and know that you took responsibility by at least trying to pay your previous outstanding debt.
 
Strange thing happened to me recently with something similar. I'm leaving because a family member needs care and I can't get her a visa to live in Japan with me, so I'm closing everything down since I have no idea how long I'll be gone or if I'll be back (first priority is family).

Well, Tokyo Gas, who handles my gas and electric, told me they couldn't bill me in advance for the final bill. I don't have someone here to pay, so I offered to use bank transfer, credit card, etc, but they told me not to worry about it and pay if I come back to Japan. I was so flummoxed by this I actually called back on the English help line to double check that I wasn't just misunderstanding.

Nope. That's the actual plan.

Everyone else had some way to pay in advance, though the city never got me the tax slip so I could pay my Katsushika taxes, so I'm going to have to call and bug them about that from out of the country. :banghead:
 
I was ill advised to be fair and they gave me a three year visa
Just curious, but how were you ill-advised? Not sure how getting a three year visa is somehow a reason for your problem...would it have been different if you got three one-year visas?
(What was your visa status that you got a three year visa?)

Some things seem a bit...off. You say you were employed. There are exceptions, but in general your company has to register for the 健康保険 system - and under the 健康保険 system, you and the employer split the cost of the health insurance; your portion is usually just withheld from your salary.

But you're saying you were in the 国民健康保険 system, which in general covers anyone not covered by the 健康保険 system - usually the self-employed (or un-employed).

How were you paying your taxes? Were you paying into the national pension system (国民年金), which is also mandatory for every person in Japan between the ages of 20 and 60? If you were employed that cost is also split between you and the employer.

500,000 yen in debt over four years means roughly 10,400 yen a month. You seriously couldn't afford Y10,400 a month? Sorry, but that's just absurd. And yes, you're going to be called a deadbeat because it sure seems like you knew you had to pay it but didn't because you decided that you 'couldn't afford it'.

The 国民健康保険 cost depends on the municipality, but IIRC that equates to income of maybe a bit under 2 million yen a year, or a bit less than 170,000 a month. Assuming a typical 40-hour work week you were only making Y1,000 an hour? What in the world were you employed to do that only paid you minimum wage but qualified you for a three-year visa?
 
that equates to income of maybe a bit under 2 million yen a year, or a bit less than 170,000 a month. Assuming a typical 40-hour work week you were only making Y1,000 an hour? What in the world were you employed to do that only paid you minimum wage but qualified you for a three-year visa?
Unfortunately, a lot of entry level English teaching jobs pay 150,000-180,000 per month nowadays. They advertise it as full-time, but it's not, so they get to scam the government by showing the actual hours are less than 3/4 of full-time so they don't have to support the health insurance plan.
 
Unfortunately, a lot of entry level English teaching jobs pay 150,000-180,000 per month nowadays. They advertise it as full-time, but it's not, so they get to scam the government by showing the actual hours are less than 3/4 of full-time so they don't have to support the health insurance plan.

So a) Japan's schools are colluding to scam the central government, which turns a blind eye, and/or b) Japan's schools are able to pay entry-level English teachers 150,000-170,000 yen a month but can't afford the 10,000 yen (or so) that the health insurance would cost?

Somehow I'm skeptical....but that's beside the point. The poster isn't even claiming ignorance, he knew he had to pay his health insurance bill, and decided not to. And you're saying it wasn't even a full-time job? So why wasn't he working other jobs? Surely there were any number of opportunities to pick up a few more classes here or there, especially on the weekends.

Most people complain about an expenses / debt problem, what they really have is an income problem. Well, there's this magical place, if you show up they give you money. It's called 'work'. If the poster really wanted to fix this, get out and hustle up every spare English class you can. If you can get 12-15 hours of extra classes in the evenings and weekends the last three months in Japan at 2,500/hour, you could make around 450,000 yen in extra cash. I assume the poster has enough savings to at least buy a plane ticket back home, so boom - there you go. Work your tail off for three months and fix it. Will it suck for those three months? Yes - but that's what you get when you ignore your obligations for four years.
 
I really hope that the "my number" system takes care of this kind of abuse.

Nobody should get a pension refund until all debts are paid--i.e., deducted from that.
 
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The OP would be best advised to pay what he owes if he's thinking of coming back to Japan in the future. Under the new My Number system, people will keep the same My Number permanently. So if he returns to Japan to work in the future, and has visa stamps from his previous stay in his passport, or tells them about his previous stay, he will receive the same My Number, presumably with the outstanding debts attached to it and with penalties and interest on top.

Of course, you could return to Japan with a new passport and claim that you haven't lived in Japan before. City office may just issue you a new My Number, unless they're going to have a system of cross-checking all "clean" passports and applications. Declaring false information on official documents would land you in trouble if they found out.

Lots of temporary foreign workers in eikaiwa and ALT do this sort of thing, doing a runner without paying tax and insurance money they owe, knowing they're not coming back to Japan. It's a game: the government allows these criminal companies to exploit cheap foreign labour, while the employee "exploits" them in return, getting a nice bonus for their troubles, and the rush that goes with doing something naughty. You could think of it as compensation, or getting one back on them.
 
Oh boo hoo! The poor robber baron bureaucracy might not get their blood money. You know, we used to have options for our insurance, but the government took them away. Now its their system or nothing. Even for people with no plan to stay here. Well screw them. You know, a lot of you people bitching don't seem to understand that these people come here with ZERO support from anybody. No family here to help them out whatsoever. No one they know they can trust to get full honest explanations. Its not their language, their culture and so many systems here are just complete lunacy. And both employers and the bureaucrats lie and withhold information.

I just signed up for the national health insurance and was told how much my premiums would be. Well guess what? They doubled by the time I got my second bill. What is my situation? Complete crap. I am not making a fortune here. I am paying off a house and land. I am about to get a divorce so I find myself with no one to help me do anything, just like so many temporary workers. If I eat, I either have to cook it or buy it. If anything gets done, I have to do it myself. You think I take trips? Go to expensive restaurants? You think I live some sort of high life? No. I don't. Hell, I cannot even go have a drink in town cause you can't even have one lousy beer and drive anymore, no night bus service, no train station nearby and taxis cost an arm and a leg to get home. And I have next to nothing in the bank to show for my time not spending any damn money on anything truly extra. At this rate I am going to zero out my bank account before too long, and then what?

It just makes me sick to read this pity party for this grossly over-taxing, wasteful and frankly corrupt government and its systems. Next time you go to a doctor you have a look at all those old folks sitting there waiting to be seen and you ask yourself if they REALLY need to be there or if they are just bored and there for excitement or if the doc just arranged multiple visits so he could suck off the system some more.

If someone escapes without paying these damned crooks I say more power to them. Do you guys even know about the poor slobs who paid into the pension system for decades and did not get one yen out of it because of an accounting error on the part of the bureaucrats?

Another anecdote from me, but I lived in a town with a crazy garbage system. Long story short, because I did not understand the system, I had to throw my garbage away in another town for a year. So I did not pay my city tax. I left and came back, and they tracked me down and started demanding payment, with punishment fees as steep as any OTHER yakuza org and yes, that is what they are. I wound up paying double what I owed, which is just thievery. So screw the government and their fees. Take what you can, and run.
 
a lot of you people bitching don't seem to understand that these people come here with ZERO support from anybody. No family here to help them out whatsoever. No one they know they can trust to get full honest explanations. Its not their language, their culture and so many systems here are just complete lunacy. And both employers and the bureaucrats lie and withhold information.
Oddly enough, I'm one of those people that came here with ZERO support from anybody. No family to help me out, didn't speak a word of the language, didn't know the customs. And I was dead-broke.

Oddly enough, I never decided to simply not pay my bills, so I never ended up with 500,000 yen in debt.

By all means, please give us the story of your evil employers and bureaucrats that 'lie and withhold information' from you. You sure it's not that your language skills simply aren't up to scratch?

I am about to get a divorce so I find myself with no one to help me do anything,
What a surprise, with such a winning personality. I'm sure your soon-to-be-ex wife loved thinking that to you she was simply there to help you do things.

You're living in a country with one of the cheapest health care systems in the world. You're also paying less tax than you'd pay in just about any country in Europe, or many cities in the US. Housing is cheaper in Tokyo than just about any other major city you can think of. I paid cash for my house and I'm a few stops outside of Shinjuku. That same amount -might- get me a down payment on a place an hour outside London. (Granted, that place in London would have a nice garden and all, but still).

There are lots and lots of things you can legitimately complain about in Japan. The health care system and tax system aren't on that list.

Since you obviously don't like it here and think other places have much less-wasteful governments, there's an easy solution to your problem, you know....
 
I really hope that the "my number" system takes care of this kind of abuse.

Nobody should get a pension refund until all debts are paid--i.e., deducted from that.

The use and abuse of employees in industries like eikaiwa and ALT are the root cause of this problem. If they didn't just import cheap foreign labour to exploit for a year, but hired skilled and qualified people to do the job and treated them like proper employees, then I would think there'd be a decline in these abuses of the tax and insurance system.

As it is, it's a mutually exploitative game: a bunch of racketeers get to rip off their customers and take advantage of foreign workers, who in turn get their own back by ripping off the government that allows these criminal companies to operate the way they do. To truly stop this abuse of the system, the eikaiwa and ALT industries, together with other industries that exploit cheap foreign labour, need to be cleaned up first.
 
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