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Japanese passive in noun modifier form

shawn524

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Need assistance with Passive verb used in a noun modifier please.
I am ok with using Active masu form in noun modifier, eg
私は田中さんがかった Pizza をたべました。
watashi wa tanaka san ga katta pizza wo tabemashita.
I ate the pizza, that Mr.Tanaka bought.

And I am ok with Direct and Indirect passive, where someone or something is acting upon the subject with passive verb ending. Where the object of a Active sentence, is now the subject. eg
Pizzaが田中さんにたべられました。
The pizza was eaten by Mr. Tanaka.
And the indirect passive uses an object with object marker.

Ok I think I've got all this. Now I need assistance with the following sentence please.
二本で  たべられた すしは、よくtuna です。
Sushi eaten in Japan, is mostly tuna. Or another excample,
二本で つかわれたものは、、、etc etc. Which means, things that are used in Japan, ......

Now how is this different from the active form above, about buying a pizza? It uses the passive form I know, but what is the grammar behind using passive in noun modifier?
What is it about passive here, that is different from the Active form?
What are the rules for using passive in noun modifier?
I am really stuck with this.
I understand the meaning behind passive used in noun modifier, but not sure of the grammar behind it.
I hope my meaning is clear. Sorry if it is not.

Many thanks
Shawn
 

Toritoribe

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二本で  たべられた すしは、よくtuna です。
Sushi eaten in Japan, is mostly tuna.
本で食べられているすしはほとんどマグロです。
(Well, I have to point out that it's not a fact.)

二本で つかわれたものは
本で使われたものは

It's the same why passive sentences are used. In the passive modifying clause 日本で食べられているすし, you don't need to make clear who the subject of the verb is, unlike ~が日本で食べているすし. Or, you don't need to change the subject by using passive voice.
cf.
昨日財布を盗まれたので、警察に行った。
昨日泥棒が財布を盗んだので、私は警察に行った。

盗まれた財布が戻ってきた。
(The subject/viewpoint is the speaker both in the modifying clause and the main verb.)
泥棒が盗んだ財布が戻ってきた。
(It's unclear where the wallet came back. To the thief's place?)
 

shawn524

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本で食べられているすしはほとんどマグロです。
(Well, I have to point out that it's not a fact.)


本で使われたものは

It's the same why passive sentences are used. In the passive modifying clause 日本で食べられているすし, you don't need to make clear who the subject of the verb is, unlike ~が日本で食べているすし. Or, you don't need to change the subject by using passive voice.
cf.
昨日財布を盗まれたので、警察に行った。
昨日泥棒が財布を盗んだので、私は警察に行った。

盗まれた財布が戻ってきた。
(The subject/viewpoint is the speaker both in the modifying clause and the main verb.)
泥棒が盗んだ財布が戻ってきた。
(It's unclear where the wallet came back. To the thief's place?)
Thank you Toritoribe. In your reply to my passive noun modifier question, are you saying that if there is no need to identify who the subject of the noun modifier is, then we use passive in the noun modifier. Is that it ?
So buildings that where built, cars that are used or made, school uniforms worn, heaters used in homes etc etc. In english, a sort of collective noun feeling, then it's passive being used ?
Thanks
Shawn
 

Mike Cash

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If
私はピザを買った。田中さんがそのピザを食べた。

Then

私はピザを買った。そのピザは田中さんに食べられた。

私が買ったピザは田中さんに食べられた。
田中さんに食べられたピザは私が買った。

It has nothing to do with whether a noun is collective or not. We're only talking about one particular specific pizza here.

The pizza which I bought (active voice) was eaten (passive voice) by Tanaka.

It works the exact same way as having nouns modified by active voice verbs.
 

Toritoribe

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Thank you Toritoribe. In your reply to my passive noun modifier question, are you saying that if there is no need to identify who the subject of the noun modifier is, then we use passive in the noun modifier. Is that it ?
So buildings that where built, cars that are used or made, school uniforms worn, heaters used in homes etc etc. In english, a sort of collective noun feeling, then it's passive being used ?
Thanks
Shawn
It's rather "when the agent is unclear" or "when it's inappropriate to make clear who the agent is" than "when there is no need to identify who the agent is".
Also note that there are many verbs whose passive form is not so commonly used. For instance, 建っているビル can be more common than 建てられたビル in most cases, or 着られた制服 is rarely used.
cf.
街角に建っているビル
狭い土地に無理やり建てられたビル

あの学校の生徒たちが着ている制服はかわいい。
太った生徒に着られた制服が伸びてしまった。
(The passive ones have a nuance of passive of adversity in both cases.)
 

shawn524

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If
私はピザを買った。田中さんがそのピザを食べた。

Then

私はピザを買った。そのピザは田中さんに食べられた。

私が買ったピザは田中さんに食べられた。
田中さんに食べられたピザは私が買った。

It has nothing to do with whether a noun is collective or not. We're only talking about one particular specific pizza here.

The pizza which I bought (active voice) was eaten (passive voice) by Tanaka.

It works the exact same way as having nouns modified by active voice verbs.
Mike Cash,
Thank you for your reply.
I see it now. It works just like any other passive.
Thanks
Shawn
 
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