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Is it all right to say this?

RvBVakama

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Say I were to approach a group of people dressed up because cosplay or something and I asked "Shashin o totte mo ii desu ka?" and one person replied "dare desu ka", how can I reply to the person that answered me implying that I want to take a photo of them and only them. Do I reply with "Anata no" or "kimi" or something else to imply "you"?

Thanks for any replies :)
 
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indojindesu

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1. しゃしんとってもいいですか? Shasshin totte mo ii desu ka?
Here, the "you" or "your picture" is implied.


2. だれですか "dare desu ka" means Who are you?

So If you answer あなたの/anata no (Dont use きみ/kimi. Use anata if you dont know their names) it would sound stupid.

"Hi, can I take a picture?"
"Who are you?!"
"Yours!"


If you insist on using a word to imply "you" you can use , あなたのしゃしんとってもいいですか? Anata no shasshin tottemo ii desu ka?

Are you a beginner? How long have you studied Japanese for? (Just curious)
 

Mike Cash

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The problem of which pronoun to use when addressing others in Japan could fill a thick book.

As indicated above, だれですか is ambiguous (in print, anyway). It could mean "Whose (picture)?" or "Just who the hell are you?" and hearing it said is the only way to be certain which. On the other hand, if it were だれのですか instead then it would be perfectly clear, "Whose (picture)?"

If you addressed the whole group, they would most likely assume you meant the whole group. If you addressed one person in particular, that person might ask if you want all or just one.

If all, ぜんいんの or みなさんの
If the one you're talking to, あなたの or おにいさんの or おねえさんの (or depending on the ages of yourself and the others maybe add おじょうさんの) to the list.

Avoid like the plague using things like きみ、おまえ etc at least until you're well past the point that you're asking questions like these. Not saying don't learn them....saying don't use them.
 

nice gaijin

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We throw "you" around so casually in English, it's easy to fall into that trap in other languages. But when you look at how Japanese is used, as Mike pointed out, very rarely do people use those pronouns. Directly addressing someone without using their name with honorifics, or some kind of descriptive title (おにいさん、おねえさん, etc), feels like you're being too familiar with a stranger. In other words, if you don't know someone enough to know their name, you don't know them well enough to be using "you."

あなた is not technically rude, but it sure feels unnatural to me (in practically every situation). きみ/おまえ/てまえ and all their derivatives are downright insulting to strangers, and should be avoided unless you're trying to start a fight.
 

Mike Cash

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あなた is not technically rude
To the contrary, it is sufficiently polite that it should be the default choice any time a foreign speaker isn't sure what to use otherwise.

The problem is that there are so many other non-pronoun things to use and that the nature of the language makes it easy to avoid the use of second and third person pronouns in almost all cases. I practically never use them.

I just realized that if a pronoun is a part of speech which takes the place of nouns, then an argument could be made that Japanese has pro-pronouns which take the place of pronouns. For example, I am routinely addressed as and respond to 運転手さん、ドライバーさん、久保田さん、おじさん、お客さん、etc by people who don't know my name and often even by those who do know my name.
 

nice gaijin

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To the contrary, it is sufficiently polite that it should be the default choice any time a foreign speaker isn't sure what to use otherwise.
What I meant was if I feel like I have to use あなた, I've failed to come up with a better way to address the other person, such as your pro-pronoun examples.
For example, I am routinely addressed as and respond to 運転手さん、ドライバーさん、久保田さん、おじさん、お客さん、etc by people who don't know my name and often even by those who do know my name.
Do you deliver sake exclusively?
 

Mike Cash

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What I meant was if I feel like I have to use あなた, I've failed to come up with a better way to address the other person, such as your pro-pronoun examples.
Good point.

Do you deliver sake exclusively?
What makes you think I deliver it at all? (I haven't hauled sake at all since the early 90s and have never delivered anything exclusively).
 

nice gaijin

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I recognized the name 久保田 as a sake brand so I thought perhaps you were referred to by that name because you were hauling it. Is it the name of your company, or is there some other reason you'd be addressed by that name?

I don't know what the situation would call for, or the nature of your work in regards to whether you're hauling freight between distribution centers (in which case I suppose it would make more sense if you were being referred to by your company's name) or delivering stock to the point of sale (when I could imagine someone delivering a specific item being referred to by the product's name, if it makes sense at all)
 

nice gaijin

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I thought of the tractors first, but didn't associate the Kanji with that company; they seem to use katakana for their name. If you google image search for クボタ, you'll get tractors. If you use kanji, you'll get mostly Sake and some celebrity faces.

I thought it was a rather large sake maker, since I've seen it in stores here... I've also had it in izakaya in Japan, but dunno if it's all that major.
 

RvBVakama

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1. しゃしんとってもいいですか? Shasshin totte mo ii desu ka?
Here, the "you" or "your picture" is implied.


2. だれですか "dare desu ka" means Who are you?

So If you answer あなたの/anata no (Dont use きみ/kimi. Use anata if you dont know their names) it would sound stupid.

"Hi, can I take a picture?"
"Who are you?!"
"Yours!"


If you insist on using a word to imply "you" you can use , あなたのしゃしんとってもいいですか? Anata no shasshin tottemo ii desu ka?

Are you a beginner? How long have you studied Japanese for? (Just curious)
oops I was under the impression that 'dare' meaning 'who' coupled with 'desu ka' would mean 'who?' like which of us do you mean kind of who.

I would call myself a beginner I started to practice Japanese about a year ago for an hour a day but I'm slow and don't learn things well so it takes me longer to learn anything :(
Thanks for the reply!
 

RvBVakama

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The problem of which pronoun to use when addressing others in Japan could fill a thick book.

As indicated above, だれですか is ambiguous (in print, anyway). It could mean "Whose (picture)?" or "Just who the hell are you?" and hearing it said is the only way to be certain which. On the other hand, if it were だれのですか instead then it would be perfectly clear, "Whose (picture)?"

If you addressed the whole group, they would most likely assume you meant the whole group. If you addressed one person in particular, that person might ask if you want all or just one.

If all, ぜんいんの or みなさんの
If the one you're talking to, あなたの or おにいさんの or おねえさんの (or depending on the ages of yourself and the others maybe add おじょうさんの) to the list.

Avoid like the plague using things like きみ、おまえ etc at least until you're well past the point that you're asking questions like these. Not saying don't learn them....saying don't use them.
Thanks Mike Cash for always leaving such awesome replies :)
Lots of great information here!
Thanks
 

RvBVakama

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We throw "you" around so casually in English, it's easy to fall into that trap in other languages. But when you look at how Japanese is used, as Mike pointed out, very rarely do people use those pronouns. Directly addressing someone without using their name with honorifics, or some kind of descriptive title (おにいさん、おねえさん, etc), feels like you're being too familiar with a stranger. In other words, if you don't know someone enough to know their name, you don't know them well enough to be using "you."

あなた is not technically rude, but it sure feels unnatural to me (in practically every situation). きみ/おまえ/てまえ and all their derivatives are downright insulting to strangers, and should be avoided unless you're trying to start a fight.
Wow 'you' is such a powerful word it seems!
Thanks :)
 

RvBVakama

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To the contrary, it is sufficiently polite that it should be the default choice any time a foreign speaker isn't sure what to use otherwise.

The problem is that there are so many other non-pronoun things to use and that the nature of the language makes it easy to avoid the use of second and third person pronouns in almost all cases. I practically never use them.

I just realized that if a pronoun is a part of speech which takes the place of nouns, then an argument could be made that Japanese has pro-pronouns which take the place of pronouns. For example, I am routinely addressed as and respond to 運転手さん、ドライバーさん、久保田さん、おじさん、お客さん、etc by people who don't know my name and often even by those who do know my name.
Thanks again for adding so much information to my post :)
PS. Are you a taxi driver or something similar?
 

RvBVakama

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You're welcome. I'm a truck driver.
Wow I would not have though of you to be a truck drive, quite surprising indeed :)
Not trying to be rude here I just thought with your extensive knowledge (or so it seems to me) of both English and Japanese I though you would be in a teaching profession of some sort.
 

Mike Cash

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Wow I would not have though of you to be a truck drive, quite surprising indeed :)
Not trying to be rude here I just thought with your extensive knowledge (or so it seems to me) of both English and Japanese I though you would be in a teaching profession of some sort.
I'm an immigrant, not an expat.

I very early on decided I wanted my ability to remain in and make a living in Japan to be even though I speak English and not just because I speak English. So I do something where English is of no use whatsoever. And even though I wake up every day as a gaijin, I don't have to spend all day being a gaijin for my bread and butter, which is unspeakably liberating and pleasant.
 

RvBVakama

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I'm an immigrant, not an expat.

I very early on decided I wanted my ability to remain in and make a living in Japan to be even though I speak English and not just because I speak English. So I do something where English is of no use whatsoever. And even though I wake up every day as a gaijin, I don't have to spend all day being a gaijin for my bread and butter, which is unspeakably liberating and pleasant.
I'm quite speechless.
I just saw the flag under your avatar and assumed that you were a native Japanese, sorry for assuming that :(
 

WonkoTheSane

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I'm an immigrant, not an expat.

I very early on decided I wanted my ability to remain in and make a living in Japan to be even though I speak English and not just because I speak English. So I do something where English is of no use whatsoever. And even though I wake up every day as a gaijin, I don't have to spend all day being a gaijin for my bread and butter, which is unspeakably liberating and pleasant.
I think at this point in your linguistic journey it's fair to say that if you were to teach either language it wouldn't be just because you speak English.
 

Mike Cash

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I think at this point in your linguistic journey it's fair to say that if you were to teach either language it wouldn't be just because you speak English.
I still don't want anything to do with it. The mere fact that it is the stereotype gaijin occupation is reason enough.
 

RvBVakama

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I still don't want anything to do with it. The mere fact that it is the stereotype gaijin occupation is reason enough.
Are you against gaijin English teachers? Nothing wrong if you are. Everyone has their own opinions and that is fine by me.
 

WonkoTheSane

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I still don't want anything to do with it. The mere fact that it is the stereotype gaijin occupation is reason enough.
I understand and I wasn't saying you should or anything, I was just drawing a distinction between those who are here because they can do something useful and those who are here because they are something novel.
 

Mike Cash

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Are you against gaijin English teachers?
No, I just don't care to be one. I am happy for anyone who enjoys it and finds it rewarding. I am sad for those who hate it and are stuck in it.
 

Mike Cash

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I understand and I wasn't saying you should or anything, I was just drawing a distinction between those who are here because they can do something useful and those who are here because they are something novel.
The prospect of spending decades here trying to maintain a facade of novelty was another motivating factor for getting the eff out of English teaching.
 
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