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Hmm, which restroom shall I use today?

@WonkoTheSane

I am sorry to hear you had that experience. It feels awful no matter the gender of the victim or the perpetrator and I really do not like people making light of it.

I did not say men cannot be the victims of sexual harassment or abuse, in fact I said the opposite. However for the huge majority of men this is not a daily struggle nor something that they think about very often, unlike women. Hence the insensitive comments which Roland has been so kind as to give us a prime example of - "I'd like to be harassed" or "Why can't you take it as a compliment?" or "At least you got laid".

Even if you don't like my fear, how am I supposed to change an emotion? "Stop feeling uneasy around men!" "Okay, I'll stop right this moment" ?? Again, on some occasions I have felt anxiety even around men I know well and like and know would not hurt me - this is not a controlled response! I would not be able to work in a heavily male-dominated environment if I were "hateful" towards my colleagues or allowed fear to dictate my interactions with them. But women are in a constant catch-22.

Person A: "Why do women object to being told where to go, how to dress, how much to drink, when to flirt, who to talk to, what comments to ignore when these are simply common sense measures for not being sexually assaulted?"
Person B (or actually sometimes Person A again): "Why are women wary of me just because I'm a man? It's sexist to assume I'm a threat when she doesn't even know me. Not all men are like that!"

Do we take every possible precaution, refuse to even talk to strange men and end up being called a frigid b----, followed, attacked because certain men think they're entitled to our attention? In this case we also get scolded for assuming men could be a threat (By the way, I don't assume all men will harass me; I know for a fact that a certain percentage will because it happens on average a few times a month here and on average several times a week in other cities. And since I don't have the power to read minds, I can't tell who will and who won't.) Or do we blithely believe that every man has good intentions, and wait until he's in the process of actually assaulting us to be wary of him? Of course any attack will be blamed on our lack of caution - "if you hadn't done XYZ you wouldn't have given him the opportunity". How can we possibly avoid criticism?

I have been sexually harassed by literally hundreds of men. If women harassed me all the time too, I would probably be afraid of everyone at those times right after being severely harassed or assaulted, not just men. But so far this has never happened to me.

If you want a world where women are not wary of men and trans people not wary of cis, instead of chiding the harassed about how they feel about it, how about we listen to their stories and try to focus on changing the behaviour of the harassers? I find it a bit odd that you accuse me of minimising others' experiences when you seem to be looking for any reason to dismiss trans people's stories of abuse.

I have empathy for women who do not want men in the same bathroom despite disagreeing with them about it, because avoiding harassment is constantly on our minds. I give trans people enough credit that they generally do whatever they can to avoid abuse but it is not possible to avoid all of it in a world that is so hostile to trans people. There is no need to tell either women or trans people that their fears of harassment and abuse are invalid or "hateful" or brought upon themselves.
 
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@WonkoTheSane

I am sorry to hear you had that experience. It feels awful no matter the gender of the victim or the perpetrator and I really do not like people making light of it.

I did not say men cannot be the victims of sexual harassment or abuse, in fact I said the opposite. However for the huge majority of men this is not a daily struggle nor something that they think about very often, unlike women. Hence the insensitive comments which Roland has been so kind as to give us a prime example of - "I'd like to be harassed" or "Why can't you take it as a compliment?" or "At least you got laid".

Even if you don't like my fear, how am I supposed to change an emotion? "Stop feeling uneasy around men!" "Okay, I'll stop right this moment" ?? Again, on some occasions I have felt anxiety even around men I know well and like and know would not hurt me - this is not a controlled response! I would not be able to work in a heavily male-dominated environment if I were "hateful" towards my colleagues or allowed fear to dictate my interactions with them. But women are in a constant catch-22.

Person A: "Why do women object to being told where to go, how to dress, how much to drink, when to flirt, who to talk to, what comments to ignore when these are simply common sense measures for not being sexually assaulted?"
Person B (or actually sometimes Person A again): "Why are women wary of me just because I'm a man? It's sexist to assume I'm a threat when she doesn't even know me. Not all men are like that!"

Do we take every possible precaution, refuse to even talk to strange men and end up being called a frigid b----, followed, attacked because certain men think they're entitled to our attention? In this case we also get scolded for assuming men could be a threat (By the way, I don't assume all men will harass me; I know for a fact that a certain percentage will because it happens on average a few times a month here and on average several times a week in other cities. And since I don't have the power to read minds, I can't tell who will and who won't.) Or do we blithely believe that every man has good intentions, and wait until he's in the process of actually assaulting us to be wary of him? Of course any attack will be blamed on our lack of caution - "if you hadn't done XYZ you wouldn't have given him the opportunity". How can we possibly avoid criticism?

I have been sexually harassed by literally hundreds of men. If women harassed me all the time too, I would probably be afraid of everyone at those times right after being severely harassed or assaulted, not just men. But so far this has never happened to me.

If you want a world where women are not wary of men and trans people not wary of cis, instead of chiding the harassed about how they feel about it, how about we listen to their stories and try to focus on changing the behaviour of the harassers? I find it a bit odd that you accuse me of minimising others' experiences when you seem to be looking for any reason to dismiss trans people's stories of abuse.

I have empathy for women who do not want men in the same bathroom despite disagreeing with them about it, because avoiding harassment is constantly on our minds. I give trans people enough credit that they generally do whatever they can to avoid abuse but it is not possible to avoid all of it in a world that is so hostile to trans people. There is no need to tell either women or trans people that their fears of harassment and abuse are invalid or "hateful" or brought upon themselves.
First, I don't dismiss their stories of abuse, I merely note that the stories you listed are specifically about using the restroom of the gender they don't identify with. I completely agree the abuse happened, I just don't see how it's germane since it is a totally different situation than using the bathroom which one does identity with. If I look male and walk into a men's room I expect a different response than if I look male and walk into a women's room. I never said it was right, only that it's not applicable. My entire point was that anyone should be able to use whatever restroom they identify with, and that generally has not been a problem. You countered with stories of people using the restrooms they DON'T identify with and there being a problem. It's not untrue, it just isn't germane to my point.

It's as if I said 1*1=1 and you said no no, 1+1=2. Yes, of course I agree, but what does that have to do with my statement about multiplication?

As regards my experience and yours, the difference is that I don't invalidate your experiences whereas you keep saying things which marginalize mine. Things like "Men don't generally..." and "...not a daily struggle..." and "...don't think about very often..."

Don't you see that what you're doing is no different than when somebody trivializes your experience?

Don't you think it's inappropriate to assume about others when you don't appreciate them assuming about you?

I just don't understand when people who are sensitive to their own experiences are incredibly insensitive to others. I fully agree that women run into sexism in a daily basis, why can't you respect us enough to recognize that when one of us says we do too, you don't have the right to tell us how we are wrong?

Your post was no less dismissive of my experience than Roland's post, I consider you equally insensitive.
 
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@WonkoTheSane
The first story was about a trans man using the disabled or ladies' room, yes, so I linked to the Rolling Stone article which details several different stories including those of trans people who used the bathroom that aligned with their gender preference. You still dismissed it.

I don't understand why you think me saying that women generally have it far worse than men invalidates your experiences or is insensitive to you. It's just a fact. Most men don't think about the possibility of being sexually assaulted all the time. Some do, but most do not. I acknowledge that women of colour generally face harassment and discrimination in their daily lives that I do not, because thanks to the quirks of genetics I look completely white, and you can only tell I'm not by my name. That doesn't mean my own bad experiences do not affect me or that I'm dismissing all other white-looking women's experiences. If you are really think there isn't a strong gendered difference when it comes to sexual harassment, your position is so utterly divorced from reality I have no idea how to argue with it.

As for being insensitive, what I find heartless is that upon hearing that I have sometimes been harassed or assaulted to the point where I become afraid even of people I like and trust, the response is not "wow that's terrible, I had no idea there were so many awful people in the world" but "how dare you be afraid of men just because your boundaries are violated with such horrifying frequency, a good victim would not have trauma".

I will continue being wary of men I don't know that well because in this world I cannot do otherwise and survive. I care more about my safety than I do about men taking it as a personal insult that I won't naively trust them.
 
@WonkoTheSane
The first story was about a trans man using the disabled or ladies' room, yes, so I linked to the Rolling Stone article which details several different stories including those of trans people who used the bathroom that aligned with their gender preference. You still dismissed it.

I don't understand why you think me saying that women generally have it far worse than men invalidates your experiences or is insensitive to you. It's just a fact. Most men don't think about the possibility of being sexually assaulted all the time. Some do, but most do not. I acknowledge that women of colour generally face harassment and discrimination in their daily lives that I do not, because thanks to the quirks of genetics I look completely white, and you can only tell I'm not by my name. That doesn't mean my own bad experiences do not affect me or that I'm dismissing all other white-looking women's experiences. If you are really think there isn't a strong gendered difference when it comes to sexual harassment, your position is so utterly divorced from reality I have no idea how to argue with it.

As for being insensitive, what I find heartless is that upon hearing that I have sometimes been harassed or assaulted to the point where I become afraid even of people I like and trust, the response is not "wow that's terrible, I had no idea there were so many awful people in the world" but "how dare you be afraid of men just because your boundaries are violated with such horrifying frequency, a good victim would not have trauma".

I will continue being wary of men I don't know that well because in this world I cannot do otherwise and survive. I care more about my safety than I do about men taking it as a personal insult that I won't naively trust them.
You linked and discussed a specific article. If you wanted me to respond to a different article you had the responsibility to link to it and discuss it. It's not my job to comb the web searching for articles you should have linked to.

So your extensive experience being male has allowed you so much insight to the male experience that you can judge it better than one of us? You decide what males think and feel?

Oh such irony!

You're no better than those you decry.

What I find heartless is that upon hearing another human being talk about their experiences you dismiss them as inconsequential. When confronted with the fact that, when given the opportunity to express their experiences in a legally meaningful way, men report as much sexual assault as women, you call it "divorced from reality."

We as men are generally taught to be stoic, this is the first time I've discussed my experiences, but you find it appropriate to use it as an opportunity to victim blame and marginalize. Providing an example of exactly the behavior you pointed out hurts you. Thereby proving my point.

Unlike you, I will continue to treat all people, women included, with the respect, care and trust owed to a fellow human being until or unless each individual proves me wrong.

I think I've extended that courtesy to you long enough. You're clearly a closed minded misandrist and I don't think further interaction will be fruitful so you'll have to excuse me for putting you on ignore.
 
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To anyone who missed the Rolling Stone article, which I DID link and discuss above, it's here:
What It's Like to Use a Public Bathroom While Trans | Rolling Stone

Other than directly expressing sympathy to Wonko, which I did, I do not know how I could have "acknowledged his experience" in the way he insists without being dishonest. Men are ill-served by gender stereotypes and sexism too. But I cannot state that men and women suffer equally from sexism, sexual harassment or objectification, because they do not and never have done.

To men in general, I suggest reading up on street harassment and the everyday precautions women take to minimise harm to ourselves. It may help you understand why women you don't know are wary of you. If you don't like this fact, blame the harassers not the women. Women are not "misandrist"; they are trying to protect themselves from something that happens to them all the time. If we automatically trusted every man who we came across until it was too late, we would end up severely harmed or dead.

To victims of abuse struggling with trauma or anxieties - abuse is never "brought upon yourself", and you are allowed to feel whatever you feel about what happened to you. It doesn't make you a worse or weaker person to be afraid of someone or something. It's your actions that count.
 
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It's only a small step further to decide that locker-rooms and shower-rooms should be co-ed too. Or that a man identifying himself as a woman should be able to change and shower with the women. Where do we draw the line? Or will the line cease to exist?
 
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