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Question Help for translate 2 kanji

Alan69

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Hello,

Could you help me for idenitfy and translate these two following kanji ?
(Off course, I have no problems with the kanji "cloth" 布 ! )

- 1 :


- 2 :


Some chinese said to me that's old japanese, and some japanese said to me that's old chinese.

Thank you for your help.
 

Alan69

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All right, thank you already for that.
Just another thing : have you any idea about what oil is the "なもみ の " / "ナモミ ノ " ?
 

Toritoribe

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Also, is there another possibility that it's not a single word, for instance "conjugation suffix of the preceding na-adjective + もみ (=籾)+ possession particle の"? In what context is the word used in the first place?
 

Alan69

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Well, that's in an article of a blog, at this link :

kenさんのBLOGS

Into the article of 2008/06/05, one can see the term :

"矢と根の間に,箆の太さに切った革を中子に通して挟むと,矢が折れたりしない。
甲や胴を立て,中に赤土を詰めて人間の体温ぐらいに温めると貫けやすくなる。
弦は筈をかける所に一寸ほどの細い針金を巻いてその上から苧で巻かくすと,矢勢が強くなって良く射通せる。
良い麻の繊維を使い,両端五寸は切り捨て,その中に馬の尾三筋を並べて入れ,弦を作る。その上を苧で巻,漆を塗って仕上げると,戦場でも雨露に強く丈夫になる。
根は細めの上角を使い,おんじゃく(鉄の粉と胡桃の油を練り合わせた物)を塗る。
なもみの油を尋矢の角木,矢摺籐にも塗る,また蟇の油をぬる"

There's , as you can read, just "なもみの油"...
 

Toritoribe

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As he wrote in the blog, it's quoted from 日置流弓目録.

第四十六條 矢の根に塗薬の事 薬に三色有り,二味一色,一味二色入れ物の事,右の内二色は尋矢,角木,的矢,弓の矢摺にも塗るなり。

As you can see, the quotation mentioned just 薬, and there is no explanation about what kind of 薬 you should put on 尋矢, 角木, etc. I checked the original text of 日置流弓目録 in the Digital Library of the Tokyo National Museum, and the semi-modern Japanese translation of it, but there is no mention about なもみの油, either.

東京国立博物館デジタルライブラリー / 日置流弓目録
日置流嫡傳秘書 日置流弓目録
(32 pages pdf file, 5.2MB)

It's not a commonly used word, so the best way to know it is to ask him about it.

EDIT:
I found the term. The writer of the blog miswrote the name of the book. He quoted it from 日置流目録, not 日置流目録.

日置流嫡傳秘書 日置流目録
(72 pages pdf file, 10.7MB)

Here's the semi-modern Japanese translation of the part (page 32. I added commmas and periods to make it easier to read).

…ぬけ薬を付まする。其薬と申まするは、おんじやくの石の事でござりまする。おんじやくと申まするは、火にあたゝめまして人の肌へつけまする石でござりまする。色はねづみ色にて、かみそり砥の様なるものでござりまする。夫をこまかに粉に致しまして、くるみの油を以て火の上におき、とろとろといたしまする様ねりまするを、矢の根に沢山ぬり付まして置まする。

And there is a note outside of the text.

なもみの油を取り、器に入置て可用とも云ふ。

I still cannot find what なもみの油 is (the most possible one I can think of is 菜籾, i.e., "rape seed oil"), but the original text says that it's just a substitute of ぬけ薬. Thus, there is no problem if you can get the original ぬけ薬.

The writer of the blog made another mistake about the interpretation of the original text, by the way. おんじゃく is not the name of 薬, but the name of stone (most likely 温石). ぬけ薬 is made from the powder of おんじゃく and walnut oil. It's not that おんじゃく is the name of 薬 made from iron powder and walnut oil, as he wrote.

EDIT2:
According to the site linked below, a theory about the etymology of オナモミ is 雄菜揉み, i.e., large namomi. Thus, なもみ can refer to a group of plants mdchachi-san mentioned above. So, なもみの油 could be "Xanthium oil". (This interpretation seems more reasonable than 菜籾.)

生薬の玉手箱 【蒼耳子(ソウジシ)】 - 株式会社ウチダ和漢薬
 
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Alan69

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For the question of the oil, I think that's na () : rape seed(s) + momi ( み form of the verb "momu" : 揉 ) : to rub, to crumble,... , so "na-momi no abura", that's something "the oil of squeezed rape seeds" : "oil of rapeseed".
 

Toritoribe

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The first one might be 腐?

Edit, there is the same with yamaidare
zihai-111620 (腐) - GlyphWiki
Yeah, I, too, thought so initially, but the lower component inside yamaidare is 面, not 肉. It's the same also for the hand-written one. You can see a horizontal line right under 付, which 肉 doesn't have.

For the question of the oil, I think that's na () : rape seed(s) + momi ( み form of the verb "momu" : 揉 ) : to rub, to crumble,... , so "na-momi no abura", that's something "the oil of squeezed rape seeds" : "oil of rapeseed".
The single kanji 菜 doesn't mean "rape seed", as in the dictionary you linked. It refers to "edible herbaceous plants" in general. As you can see in the explanation about the etymology of オナモミ I linked in my previous post, 菜揉み means "rubbing the plant including stalks and leaves", and ナモミ is named from this action (茎葉を揉んでつけると虫刺されに効くためナモミ(菜揉み)の名がついた). My interpretation "rape seed" is possible when with 籾, but note that 菜籾 is just my wild guess. 籾, i.e. "husk/hull" is usually not used for "rape seed". The most common word for "rape seed oil" is 菜油, since 菜種 means "rape seed" as a compound word.
菜種を英語で訳す - goo辞書 英和和英
菜種を英語で・英訳 - 英和辞典・和英辞典 Weblio辞書
菜種 - Jisho.org
菜種の英訳|英辞郎 on the WEB:アルク
 
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