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Continental Migrations from Korean Peninsula to Japanese islands

Joined
Aug 14, 2010
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There are newly proposed hypotheses, and I will summarize the points made by four posters, Adulado, Kyushin, charlypanda Izur.
Many of posters don't discuss their statements in details, and I think it appropriate to examine them before the other members will get lost where to look, or to start.

Korean posters' hypotheses

  • Scenario: Gojoseon men are O2b* carriers
  • Scenario: Goguryeo men are O2b* carriers
  • Scenario: Goguryeo men and Gojoseon men are O2b* carriers, i.e., Goguryeo is a descendant of Gojoseon
  • Scenario: 40 percents of Japanese are sinitic, not altaic. O2b1 is borne in southern china.
  • Scenario: 28 percents of Japanese are non-sinitic, altaic. O2b1 was borne in Jilin Province of China.
  • Scenario: Ancient Koreans had two separate unmixed, tribes of each being purely O2b1 or O2b*.
  • Scenario: O2b1 carriers were first borne 7,870 years ago, O2b1 carriers crossed the sea to japan to become the 20 percents of present day Japanese.

Up till now, scenario supposed that O2b was borne in Korea, or Manchuria, which is doubtful?
It is clear that 44.5 percents of Koreans are O3 carriers (most common in Chinese), and 20 percents of Japanese are O3 carriers. (most common in Chinese).

It is also clear that Manchus have only a few percents of O2b*.
Another question is,.. when were the O3's genetic variations? O2b1 was borne 7,870 years ago, and Okinawans have this O2b1 with a high frequency, and Okinawans didn't have notable records from influences from Korea...

O2, origin of all O2 haplogroups, was probably primitive tribes of South East Asian people who migrated north.

List of charlypanda's hypotheses: (korean poster)

  1. Gojoseon men are O2b* carriers. But not Goguryeo men.
  2. Goguryeo men are O2b* carriers. But not Gojoseon men.
  3. Goguryeo men and Gojoseon men are O2b* carriers, i.e., Goguryeo is a descendant of Gojoseon.
  4. Koreans is not a part of Longshan culture.
  5. O2b1 was borne in Jilin Province of China.
  6. Koreans had two separate unmixed, tribes of each being purely O2b1 or O2b*.
  7. O2b1 was borne in Gojoseon, or Chaoxian tribe.
  8. O2b* was Gojoseon marker.
  9. This is as an axle of a car whereof left and right wheel RPM are differentiated. I think those who remain in Highland reproduce children less than who make
    that in fertile Lowland. Hence I suppose that Gaoyi might have been O2b and Liangyi O2b1.
  10. No Gojoseon as a state/nation existed, but Chaoxian Tribe, Highland Tribe.
  11. I'm imagining Tangun Korea was a part of Ceramic Comb Pottery, Bear Cult Zone that stretched from Pacific to Atlantic Ocean.
  12. 東夷族系向東北的遷徙,客觀上為中國東北地區的開發和建設作出了卓越的歷史貢獻。
    就其本身而言,則又進行了局部地區的演變與融合,
    最終便發展成了數量眾多的具有相同族源和相近文化的各個民族。
  13. Ancient Mongols were Korean, O2b* and O2b1. → A part of ancient Mongolians became a part of ancient Koreans
  14. Japanese emperor is/was Korean. → LOL Wei's Chronicle says that Wo people once erected a man for king but all people didn't agree and then erected a queen. By the way, Korea is something that arouse a millenium later thereafter.
  15. Dongyi were Koreans. → Majority of Koreans are Dongyi.

All points were claimed without sources... Easy to spot that this korean did retract his statements every now and then, after his claims did not reveal to be favorable to Koreans self-images.
In a formal wording, historical revisionism...

List of Kyushin's hypotheses: (Korean poster)

  1. Modern Japanese genes are recently made not as old as Korean genes.
  2. Han Chinese mutated O3 is O3d aka O3a4-M7
  3. Koreans share close proximity of mtDNA and autosomal DNA with Mongolian and Japanese.
  4. Gojoseon tombs revealed little info. about DNA because they are too old for extracting DNA analysis, so researchers used skull measurements to determine the origin. They've found Dolmen builders (Gojoseon people) may have originated from Central Asia.
  5. Qing Dynasty prohibited ethnic group to mix but this gradually stand down as many Mongolian and Manchus married Han Chinese.
  6. If Han Chinese were ancestor of Japanese/Koreans then they should also have O2b* + O2b1, also O3d-M7 aka O3a4, O1b-M110 + O2a1-M88 is absent from Koreans or Japanese.
  7. If Koreans were originated from Northern Han Chinese then Koreans should have O1b-M110, O2a1-M88 and O3d-M7 and would have transported this carriers to Japan, however Koreans don't have them thus Japanese don't have them too.
  8. This doesn't mean O2b is originated from SE Asia because O2b is not dominant y-Chromosome marker among SE Asian population. Who knows some Japanese/Koreans may have traveled far as SE Asia and spread their marker.
  9. Scientists are using Korean genes to measure the genetic distance between among East Asian because Koreans are known to be most homogeneous people in East Asia, more homogeneous than Japanese.

Reply to Kyushin..

(1) does not make sense at all.
(2) O3 composition of Han Chinese is similar to Koreans.
(3) Mongols do not have O2b*, uniquely Korean genes.
(4) Koreans, O2b*, originated from Central Asia? Why does Central Asian not have O2b*, uniquely Korean genes?
(5) At time of Qing, Mongolians and Manchus population was immeasurably small to the Han Chinese population.
(6) Why Han Chinese people have similar composition of O3 YDNA to Koreans?
(7) "O3-M122(xO3a3c-M134) is found in China with about the same frequency as it is found in Korea".
Korean YDNA composition:

  1. 15/722 = 2.1 percents D (probably mostly D2 from Japan)
  2. 8/722 = 1.1 percents Y*(xC, DE, K) (including at least some J and F(xI, J2, H1, K))
  3. 101/722 = 14.0 percents C (probably all C3-M217(xC3c-M48))
  4. 42/722 = 5.8 percents K(xO) (including at least N1*(xN1a, N1b, N1c), N1a, N1c, NO(xN1, O), Q1a1, and R)
  5. 245/722 = 33.9 percents O(xO1a, O3) (mostly consists of O2b(xO2b1))
  6. 19/722 = 2.6 percents O1a
  7. 292/722 = 40.4 percents O3
(8) Koreans traveled to Vietnam, Malaysia, and Indonesia to contribute O2b? Any evidences or historical records?
(9) According to the YDNA frequency, Korean are not homogeneous. Please read the figure, before you post...
Adulado
  1. Wasn't clarified that o2b1 is a mutated form of o2b? also Okinawans also have Korean DNA and vice versa (Koreans have 17 percent Okinawan DNA, even more than the Japanese), I don't know in which period but Goryo style roof tiles was found in Okinawa.
(1) This is incorrect. 17 percents of Okinawans do have O2b1, uniquely Japanese haplogroups..
List of Izur's hypotheses
  1. The fact that haplogroup O2b is not generally found in North Asia or continental East Asia (outside of Koreans and Manchus) is itself enough to throw serious doubt on any hypothesis of an ancient continental Manchurian origin.
  2. Hammer et al. (2005) have found haplogroup O2*-P31(xO2a-M95, O2b-SRY465/P49) in Han Chinese
  3. I believe that the mitochondrial DNA, autosomal DNA, and phenotypic links that exist between Koreans and northern Asians can be explained by a largely shared matrilineal ancestry in addition to the portion of their patrilineal ancestry that is represented by haplogroup C3-M217.
  4. The present work provides evidence that peopling of Korea can be seen as a complex process, interpreted as an early northern Asian settlement with at least one subsequent male-biased southern-to-northern migration, possibly associated with the spread of rice agriculture. (Y chromosomes and mtDNA of Koreans, 2009, Han-Jun Jin, Chris Tyler-Smith, Wook Kim)
  5. O3-M122(xO3a3c-M134) is found in China with about the same frequency as it is found in Korea
  6. Haplogroup O3a3c-M134: Found frequently among Sino-Tibetan peoples, with a moderate distribution throughout East Asia and Southeast Asia.
  7. The only logical explanation is that O2b has entered some subgroups of the Southern Tungusic-speaking people very recently from Korea or Japan, and there is historical evidence for an influence from southwestern Japan ("Wa") to southern Korea ("Silla," "Baekje") and thence to Manchuria ("Goguryeo" > "Bohai" > "Manju");
  8. It is clear that haplogroup O3-M122 (including O3*, O3+LINE1, O3a3c*, and O3a3c1) is the most common Y-DNA haplogroup among modern Koreans, occurring in approximately 40% of all Korean males
In summary,
  1. The dominant O3 haplogroup of Japanese is O3a3c-M134, which is also dominant in southern Chinese population. Koreans have less O3a3c-M134 than Japanese, providing evidences that Japanese islanders O3a3c-M134 might be from Southern china during Ice age with land bridge between mainland and Japanese islands.
  2. O3 genes were brought to Korean peninsula, and to Japanese isles separately. On average, Japanese have more O3a3c-M134 than Koreans, implying that Japanese islanders colonized Korean peninsulas, and reproduced with Korean women, and left smaller O3a3c-M134 in Korean peninsula.
  3. O2b1 is almost non-existent, or very few to be unnoticeable in Mongolia, China, Manchuria. O2b1 is also low frequency in Koreans (4 percents to 12 percents.), but high in Japanese, implying that Japanese colonized the southernmost Koreans, and descendants reproduced with Korean men, to leave traces of Japanese genes, which were actually southern Han Chinese genes.
It is known by Gwanggaeto Stele...
而 倭 以 辛 卯 年 來 渡 海 破 百 殘 X X [X斤 (新)] 羅 以 爲 臣 民

First Interpretation
Second Interpretation

Genetic evidences seem to support the first interpretation of Gwanggaeto Stele.. It is understandable Koreans must hate Japanese...



Three scenarios can be discussed here...

Scenario (By Kyushin, and Izur) O3 genes were brought to Korean peninsula, and to Japanese isles separately. Dual origins of two O3 gene types.

During Ice age, there were hunter-gatherers in china, who carried the O2 genes. O2 people eventually mutated to become O2b* and migrated along the coastline to Korean peninsula. However, the rice cultures and advanced people from china pushed those primitives, O2b* carriers, to only Korean peninsula, to become the 17 percents of present-day Koreans?

Gojoseon, and Goguryeo men, O2b* carriers, were under the rule of Lelang Commandery (BC108-AD313). Korean women headed to reproduce with northern Han Chinese men (O3 haplogroups other than O3a3c of southern Chinese)? Many of Gojoseon defected to the southernmost Korean peninsula formed the three countries?

During Ice age, southern Chinese, mostly O3a3c-M134, crossed the land bridge between mainlands, and Japanese islands. O2b* men, hunter-gatherers in china, also migrated to Okinawa in different periods? Those southern Chinese colonized the primitive people of Okinawa, and went on civilizing Jomon people of japan. Some O2b* men went Japanese islands, and then to Korean peninsula, leaving traces of Japanese in Korean peninsula. Around 7,870 years ago, O2b1 was formed in Japanese islands?

Japanese O3a3c, and newly mutated O2b1 men crossed the sea and colonized Korean peninsula. At the time of invasion, both Baekje and Silla men decreased because of Lelang Commandery (BC108-AD313) and weakened by Goguryeo invasions. When Japanese primitive people invaded Baekje and Silla, many Korean women flock to primitive Japanese men, O3a3c-M134 and O2b1 carriers to survive the hardships, and reproduced the offsprings of O3a3c-M134 and O2b1, and then become 10-15 percents of present-day Koreans with uniquely southern Chinese genes, and become 4-12 percents of present day Koreans carrying uniquely Japanese genes ?


or

Scenario (By Izur) In the Ice age, O2* carriers to migrate to Okinawa from southern china. 7,870 years ago, Okinawans mutated to become both O2b* and then O2b1 separately.


During Ice age, southern Chinese, hunter-gatherers or O2* carriers, crossed the land bridge between Okinawa and mainlands, and colonized the primitive people of japan. 7,870 years ago or even before, O2* mutated to become O2b* and O2b1?

In the continent, Lelang Commandery (BC108-AD313) colonized the Koreans, and brought the O3 genes by ruling northern Han Chinese to reproduce with Korean women, and become 30 percents of present day Koreans.

Around the time of Goguryeo, primitive people of japan, reproduced with very high rates supported by warm weather of the Japanese islands. Japanese men, O2b* and O2b1 carriers, crossed the sea, and invaded Baekje and Silla to install their governments? Goguryeo, upon hearing the invasions of Japanese, headed to the peninsula, and recolonized the southernmost Korea filled with island barbarians?

or

Scenario (By Izur) O2b1 was brought by Japanese to Korean peninsula, Baekje and Silla. O2b* was also brought to Japan from southern china, and to Korean peninsula from Japanese islands but O2b* was probably brought to Korea much before 8000 years ago.

Koreans ratio of O2b* (around 24 percents (14-33)) and O2b1 (around 8 percents (4-12) ) is around 3:1.
Japanese ratio of O2b* (around 6 percents (4-8)) to O2b1 (around 22 percents (19-25)) is 1:4.

To make sense, O2b* should be uniquely Korean gene, and introduced to Koreans 8000 years ago or even before. O2b1 should be uniquely Japanese gene, and O2b* hunter-gathers who settled islands became O2b1 carriers to adjust different environments around 7,870 years ago.

Lelang Commandery (BC108-AD313) colonized and enslaved the Gojoseon, and Gojoseon women chose to marry northern Han Chinese of O3 other than O3a3c-M134, which resulted in the major decrease of O2b* genes (uniquely Korean genes) in Koreans. Only around 20 percents of present day Koreans carried this O2b*..

Around Goguryeo's zenith of power, Japanese primitive people, O2b1 and O3a3c-M134, invaded the southernmost Korea, and many Silla and Baekje women chose to reproduce with ruling primitive people of japan, introducing the O2b1 to Korean peninsula.
 
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