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Checking my understanding of やる、する、は&が

zxuiji

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It was bugging me what the differences between them where and since I have yet to reach any descriptions on them in genki I went and googled it and clicked on the TK links below:
Difference between 【する】 and 【やる】 | Tae Kim's Blog
The difference between 「は」 and 「が」 | Tae Kim's Blog
Having read that would it be correct to say:
やる is only used on verbs not including a noun and only on ones that are visible to the naked eye
する is any verb and pretty much the more polite version of やる where it would have been usable
は is used where the name of the subject is already known (such as "halifax", "final fantasy", "John/Jane Doe")
が is used where the name of the subject is not known or unspecific in nature (such as "who", "what", "game" or "banks")
 

Toritoribe

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All wrong except the first one "やる is only used on verbs not including a noun" (i.e., it's correct if you mean "やる can't be used instead of する for -suru verbs" by that).
 

zxuiji

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Okay I understand that one a bit better now, TK didn't mention that properly but instead used only an example with a noun in it, if he had used a example without a noun as well I might have picked up on it, anyway if my understanding of the others is just off instead of totally incorrect then would you mind pointing it out for me please? Incidently I am still reading genki, on pages 98-99 atm will most likely read a bit more today after my usual fix of novels.

Edit: Forgot to include my appreciation, thx :)
 

Toritoribe

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Actually, your understanding is totally wrong.
やる can't be used for intransitive change (e.g. 落下をする, 成功をする, 合格をする), on the other hand, する can't be used for the meanings "to give", "to let/make go", "to eat/drink" (e.g. ペットに餌をやる, 部下を使いにやる, 一杯やる).
As for は vs. が, read the following thread including the threads/sites linked there, especially this page.
を vs. は | Japan Forum
 

zxuiji

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Thanks for the links, just reading Intransitive Verbs first since I've only just remembered to look up the difference between transitive & intransitive which has been confusing me for a while and didn't get round to it (joys of re-learning grammar terms I never thought I would need to know the meaning of T-T)

Edit:
Gonna visit those links while waiting for a reply on this but would I be correct to say that する is used for state of being (such as friendly, blue, miserable, studying, lively) where as やる is used for state of doing (such as batting, thinking, sleeping, kneading, playing)
 
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Toritoribe

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would I be correct to say that する is used for state of being (such as friendly, blue, miserable, studying, lively) where as やる is used for state of doing (such as batting, thinking, sleeping, kneading, playing)
No, completely wrong.
 

zxuiji

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Okay so going by what I read so far the difference in the example sentences

tarō ga hon wo kaimashita
たろう が ほん を かいました
太郎たろうが本ほんを買かいました
tarō wa hon wo kaimashita
たろう は ほん を かいました
太郎たろうは本ほんを買かいました

given in the first link when translated literally would be something like

Taroo "is whom by" book bought
Taroo "is actor of the statement:" Book bought

And similarly the following

日本語はむずかしいますね
はい、日本語がむずかしいます

would be translated likewise

Japanese "is subject of statement:" Difficult right?
Yes, Japanese "is what is" difficult.
 

zxuiji

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I have to pause my reading to get on with a weekly task of helping my elderly neighbour, I'll continue reading in about 2-3 hours time, for now I'll just put the computer to sleep.
 

OoTmaster

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tarō ga hon wo kaimashita
たろう が ほん を かいました
太郎たろうが本ほんを買かいました
tarō wa hon wo kaimashita
たろう は ほん を かいました
太郎たろうは本ほんを買かいました

given in the first link when translated literally would be something like

Taroo "is whom by" book bought
Taroo "is actor of the statement:" Book bought
Not exactly. For は it is referring to who or what the sentence is talking about, so it would be more like "Speaking about Taroo, (he) bought a book." For が I think you're understanding that part. Keep in mind that が in context like that can be used for emphasis that it was Taroo that bought the book, not someone else.

Edited: Also note that は is used to change who or what you are talking about. 私は昼ごはんを食べました。"Speaking of me, ate lunch." 太郎は本を買いました。"Speaking of Taroo, bought a book" 消しゴムも買いました。 (Taroo) Eraser also bought. Note that if you simply said "本を買いました。" the sentence would still be referring to 私 instead of Taroo.
 
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zxuiji

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Still reading the first link but I think I get the difference between は&が now (hopefully I remember that in future attempts to translate my sentences into japanese). I'm about 2 3rds(would that be 二の三つめ? - Couldn't remember the other kanji) down the page so will move onto the next soon.

For clarification what I now understand the literal translation of は to be is "relative to which speaking,", albiet this would be converted to plain subjects in natural english.
 

OoTmaster

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I wasn't quite sure how to express fractions in Japanese. When I looked it up it looks like you express fractions as "parts" 分 so 2/3 would be 三分の二. I'm not sure on the policy of linking to other forums on here so if it's appropriate to do so I'll post a link to the forum where I found that.
As far は I think your understanding is correct. If by "relative to which speaking" you mean what is currently being discussed. In that regard it's used to set or change context of what you are speaking about.
 

zxuiji

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Applying my current understanding the sentence "She grew up on a ranch" provided in my earlier link would be something like:
彼女はラ一ンチェで中を年伸した
If the 年伸した is wrong (which I assume it is) forgive me for that since I don't yet know the equivalent of aged but figured it probably went along the lines of "year/age lengthened" and substituted for formats sake. I'm also figured that the equivalant of "on" (上) in japanese is not what would have been used in the equivalant sentence so went with the closest to "in" I could think of which was. So putting that and the probable grammar errors aside would that have been along the right lines for the format?

Edit: Starting on the second link you provided btw
 

zxuiji

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...you express fractions as "parts" 分 so 2/3 would be 三分の二...
Thanks that will be helpful later though for now it's just a nice tidbit of information to me.
...currently being discussed...
Thanks :) Yeah that's another way of saying it, as I said before it's ment to be a literal translation so it takes thinking about to convert to natural english but for an on the fly translation in one's head it is helpful to distinguish the difference in intented meaning of what is being said/read.
 

zxuiji

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...山田さん(に)はお兄さんいますか or 山田さん(に)はお兄さんいません...
Hi, since I was directed to read this thread from my own I'll post the question here. I just want to check my understanding of those two sentences is correct:

山田さんはお兄さんいますか
Literal: Yamada-san relative to which speaking, Onii-san about which exist animatally yes?
Natural: Does Yamada-san have an older brother?
山田さんはお兄さんいません
Literal: Yamada-san relative to which speaking, Onii-san about which exists animatally not.
Natural: Yamada-san does not have an older brother.
 

Toritoribe

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日本語はむずかしいますね
はい、日本語がむずかしいます
The polite form is wrong. むずかしい is an i-adjective, not a verb.

albiet this would be converted to plain subjects in natural english.
As in the site and thread I linked, everything can be the topic, thus, は is not always the subject even in English translation.

Applying my current understanding the sentence "She grew up on a ranch" provided in my earlier link would be something like:
彼女はラ一ンチェで中を年伸した
If the 年伸した is wrong (which I assume it is) forgive me for that since I don't yet know the equivalent of aged but figured it probably went along the lines of "year/age lengthened" and substituted for formats sake.
It doesn't makes sense at all, as always. Why don't you look up the word in the dictionary if you don't know the Japanese translation of the word?
grow up
(1)〈人・動物が〉成長[成育]する;〈人が〉大人[成人]になる;大きくなって(…に)なる((into,to be)) (⇒[自動詞]1(1))
grow up spoiled
甘やかされて育つ
grow up into [or to be] a criminal
大人になって犯罪者になる.
growの意味 - goo辞書 英和和英

Hi, since I was directed to read this thread from my own I'll post the question here. I just want to check my understanding of those two sentences is correct:

山田さんはお兄さんいますか
Literal: Yamada-san relative to which speaking, Onii-san about which exist animatally yes?
Natural: Does Yamada-san have an older brother?
山田さんはお兄さんいません
Literal: Yamada-san relative to which speaking, Onii-san about which exists animatally not.
Natural: Yamada-san does not have an older brother.
I moved your post. It's better to keep on using this thread instead of thread hijacking.
Yes your translations are correct, but it's not the point we were talking about in the thread since the translations are the same even with お兄さんは.
 

zxuiji

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The polite form is wrong. むずかしい is an i-adjective, not a verb.
Fair enough, was planning on working on my understanding of that after fixing my understanding of the particles I find most problematic, still gotta fix my understanding of する&やる after all.

As in the site and thread I linked, everything can be the topic, thus, は is not always the subject even in English translation.
I always treated them as the same thing in english and still don't really understand the difference all that well so I don't really understand your point there but as long as I learn to translate the meaning correctly in both directions then that little nuance shouldn't matter. Thanks for trying anyway, if I ever understand the difference I might get what you're saying here but for now l'll shelve the matter for after I learn conjugation and a significant portion of the language.

It doesn't makes sense at all, as always. Why don't you look up the word in the dictionary if you don't know the Japanese translation of the word?
As I said before I already assumed it was probably wrong and merely using it as a placeholder. As for why I didn't look it up, I figured after all my previous failed attempts it was better for the post to just have a placeholder that was explained to it's intended meaning and focus on the more basic grammar I was trying to understand. I'll certainly return to the issue once I finish going though all the genki books and memrise genki courses.

I moved your post. It's better to keep on using this thread instead of thread hijacking.
Yes your translations are correct, but it's not the point we were talking about in the thread since the translations are the same even with お兄さんは.
Ahh okay then, didn't realise it counted as thread hi-jacking but now I know for future reference, thanks. As for the translation part that's good to know that I'm finally on the right track with those two particles, I'll work on する&やる next, wouldn't happen to have a link to an in depth discussion on them would you?

Ah btw it may be a couple weeks before I get round to it again (unless I remember on 日曜日), this week I got work and next week I will be going to Isle of Wight to visit my grandma who contracted some kinda nueral disease which is supposedly fatal, cold as my heart is atm I may regret it later if I don't use my up coming holidays to visit her while I have the chance just so I can study more japanese.
 
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