What's new

Can I combine presumptive and causative verb conjugations?

Jaydent1

marvelous
Joined
May 14, 2014
Messages
34
Trying to say, 'probably made to wait'.
For example:
待つ
待たせる + 待とう
to make something like
待たせたろう

or would it be better to use an adverb such as:
おそらく待たせる
 
Last edited:

Mike Cash

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう
Joined
Mar 15, 2002
Messages
16,454
Ratings
1,568
待たされただろう。

Your original is passive, don't forget.
 
Joined
Jan 14, 2009
Messages
1,660
Ratings
393
待とう is not normally used (at least to my knowledge) to mean "presumptive" as in "probably", this form is usually called "volitional" (shows volition/intent) as in "lets", "try to" (~ようとする), etc.

At any rate, to combine these two forms, first convert to causative, then convert the causative verb to volitional (~せる → ~せよう).
待つ → 待たせる → 待たせよう
食べる → 食べさせる → 食べさせよう
飲む → 飲ませる → 飲ませよう

To show "probably" there are several ways. Mike has shown you one, which is very common and good to know, you can also use adverbs, you can even use both in the same sentence:
たぶん来ないだろう
(he/she/somebody) probably won't come.
 

Jaydent1

marvelous
Joined
May 14, 2014
Messages
34
So let me just see if I have this figured out.
食べる - to eat
食べさせる - to make eat
食べさせてくれた - to let eat
食べさせよう - lets/why not make eat
たぶんorおそらく食べさせる - perhaps/probably make eat

I don't understand where the された is coming from in this 待たされただろう。(from Mike). What conjugation is this?

Additionally, I keep getting confused when it comes to the potential form and the passive form. I didn't know they were even constructed the same way until I just looked it up now. It's kind of confusing for me to figure out whether they are using it as a passive form, or a potential form to signify can/cannot.
I am also having trouble defining just what the passive form is.
For example, what's the difference between these two sentences?
手紙が田中さんに書かれました。
田中さんが手紙を書きました。
The only thing I can think of is that it's less direct? The first one moreso reporting passively that he wrote a letter. And the second stating a blunt fact that he wrote a letter? Confusing. What would the meaning be if I changed the first sentence to 手紙が田中さんに書きました。?
 

Jaydent1

marvelous
Joined
May 14, 2014
Messages
34
Where did the edit button go...

All right after some intense thought I believe that I have sorted out the whole causative/passive/potential confusion.
So essentially, passive and potential conjugations are exactly the same for ru verbs. However you can drop 'ra' for the potential form in a casual conversation. And for u verbs, rather than converting to -あ and adding れる (for passive), you need to convert to -え and add る. Right? Or did I screw it up further.

Am I also right in saying that passive generally applies to something done by something (and written that way), and is usually encouraged in literature, unlike in English?
 

Toritoribe

松葉解禁
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Feb 22, 2008
Messages
14,828
Ratings
2 1,537
Volitional forms can express "presumption", therefore this form is also called "presumptive form". Especially, this form only means "presumption" when the verb is non-volitional (e.g. 明日は雨が降ろう). This usage is a bit classical, so ~だろう is far more commonly used in modern Japanese (e.g. 明日は雨が降るだろう).

I don't understand where the された is coming from in this 待たされただろう。(from Mike). What conjugation is this?
Your example "probably made to wait (= the subject was/will be probably made to wait)" is passive, as Mike-san pointed out. された/される is coming from here.

I am also having trouble defining just what the passive form is.
For example, what's the difference between these two sentences?
手紙が田中さんに書かれました。
田中さんが手紙を書きました。
The only thing I can think of is that it's less direct? The first one moreso reporting passively that he wrote a letter. And the second stating a blunt fact that he wrote a letter? Confusing. What would the meaning be if I changed the first sentence to 手紙が田中さんに書きました。?
に indicates the target the letter is sent to, so the first sentence is interpreted as "A letter was written for Tanaka (by someone)". によって is used to indicate the writer instead of に in this case, i.e, 手紙が田中さんによって書かれました。 "A letter was written by Tanaka".

The passive sentence has several functions, for instance It can hide the agent, or it can connect clauses without changing the subject.

手紙が田中さんに書きました means "A letter wrote something for Tanake", so this is not valid.

Am I also right in saying that passive ... is usually encouraged in literature, unlike in English?
Where did you get it from?
 
Joined
May 14, 2014
Messages
34
This usage is a bit classical, so ~だろう is far more commonly used in modern Japanese (e.g. 明日は雨が降るだろう).
So you would suggest generally using だろう in most cases, rather than using the volitional form to express presumption?

に indicates the target the letter is sent to, so the first sentence is interpreted as "A letter was written for Tanaka (by someone)".
The lesson here states 'by' Tanaka. https://jref.com/japanese/passive-forms/

"手紙が田中さんに書かれました。
Tegami ga Tanaka-san ni kakaremashita.
The letter was written by Mr. Tanaka."

The passive sentence has several functions, for instance It can hide the agent, or it can connect clauses without changing the subject.
So I could hide the agent by omitting 田中さん?

Where did you get it from?
Read it somewhere as I was looking passive up. I'll have to find it later.
 

Toritoribe

松葉解禁
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Feb 22, 2008
Messages
14,828
Ratings
2 1,537
So you would suggest generally using だろう in most cases, rather than using the volitional form to express presumption?
Yes, except in some set phrases or proverbs.

The lesson here states 'by' Tanaka. https://jref.com/japanese/passive-forms/

"手紙が田中さんに書かれました。
Tegami ga Tanaka-san ni kakaremashita.
The letter was written by Mr. Tanaka."
That explanation is indeed in this forum, but I have to say that's wrong. See the following thread about the ambigouity of what に indicates in a kind of passive sentences/clauses.

https://jref.com/forum/threads/許されて-よくなっていた-来さえしたら.53521/#post-732577

So I could hide the agent by omitting 田中さん?
"No need to mention" might be more appropriate than "to hide". As you can see in your example sentence "I was made to wait", this causative passive sentence is valid without stating the causer also in English, unlike the causative active sentence "(the subject) made me wait", isn't it? This is one of the functions of the passive voice.
 
Joined
May 14, 2014
Messages
34

Mike Cash

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう
Joined
Mar 15, 2002
Messages
16,454
Ratings
1,568
Yeah I checked with my Japanese friend yesterday and she confirmed that it was a mistake. I'll definitely take a look at this link though.

Thanks for all the help.
I bet Toritoribe-san would be glad to have you consider him your Japanese friend as well. He's exceptionally nice about things like that.
 
Joined
May 14, 2014
Messages
34
I bet Toritoribe-san would be glad to have you consider him your Japanese friend as well. He's exceptionally nice about things like that.
Toritoribe-san is just all round helpful in general. It amazes me how much effort he puts into helping everyone. I have a feeling I'll get to know you both in the future. With the sheer amount of questions I have... ;)
 

Mike Cash

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう
Joined
Mar 15, 2002
Messages
16,454
Ratings
1,568
what kind of form is that ?
shouldn't causative-passive form is 待たせられた
待たす is another way of saying 待たせる

I usually hear people using the "short form" of the causative so I've gotten the habit of using it myself.
 

Mike Cash

骨も命も皆此の土地に埋めよう
Joined
Mar 15, 2002
Messages
16,454
Ratings
1,568
Note also:

imageuploadedbytapatalk1418310223-989712-jpg.20129
 
Joined
May 14, 2014
Messages
34
I read something particularly interesting on that page. So it's not just me that finds られる difficult to pronounce? Making the rolled r sound consecutively in this way is kind of difficult for me. Is this common? And are there shortened versions for potential verbs? (食べられる・食べれる)

I do remember reading that it's grammatically incorrect to shorten る verbs for the potential form, although still done in colloquial conversation. Is this the same for passive?
 

Toritoribe

松葉解禁
Staff member
Moderator
Joined
Feb 22, 2008
Messages
14,828
Ratings
2 1,537
I always think "classical form origin" is more appropriate than the terms such like "shortened", "contracted" or "abbreviation"


[補説]中世以降、下一段化して、現代語の「せる」となる。
http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/leaf/jn2/116051/m0u/す/


I read something particularly interesting on that page. So it's not just me that finds られる difficult to pronounce? Making the rolled r sound consecutively in this way is kind of difficult for me. Is this common? And are there shortened versions for potential verbs? (食べられる・食べれる)
食べれる is called ら抜き言葉. That's not "due to difficulty in pronunciation", but "to distinguish potential form and passive form". In fact, ら is never omitted in passive forms.
 
Last edited:
Joined
May 14, 2014
Messages
34
I always think "classical form origin" is more appropriate than the terms such like "shortened", "contracted" or "abbreviation"


http://dictionary.goo.ne.jp/leaf/jn2/116051/m0u/す/



食べれる is called ら抜き言葉. That's not "due to difficulty in pronunciation", but "to distinguish potential form and passive form". In fact, ら is never omitted in passive forms.
Oh, I thought it was grammatically incorrect to omit ら for る verb potential conjugations. Well that's good to know! It's also good to know that there's a way to distinguish between potential and passive.
 
Joined
May 14, 2014
Messages
34
ら抜き言葉 is indeed used widely in colloquial conversations, but is considered grammatically wrong. I recommend learners not to use it.
Here's an old thread of the same topic. See the reaction of Ashi-san, who is also a native Japanese speaker, in his post.
https://jref.com/forum/threads/emasu-raremasu.38003/
Thanks for clearing that up. It was confusing because I kept hearing people saying you could/couldn't use it.
 
Top