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About どこまで used with a ば-form verb

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Hey there,

I just saw this phrase today: "どこまで勝手をすりゃあ、気が済むってんだ!"

My problem is that, while both どこまで and the ば-form are nothing new to me, I can't remember if I've ever seen them used together like this.

Could anyone explain how that どこまで is interacting with 勝手をすれば?

Thanks
 

mdchachi

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Using an easier example, you could say 今日どこまで終わればいい? and this would mean "how much do I have to finish today?"
It's hard to properly translate your example without context but if I took a stab at it, I'd say "How far must you have it your own way until you're satisfied."
 

Toritoribe

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どこまで means "how" in that case, as already explained.
どこまで【何処まで】
2 〔どの段階・範囲〕
どこまで行けばホテルがありますか
How far do we have to go to find a hotel?
どこまでも麦畑が続いていた
The wheat fields extended endlessly.
交渉はどこまでいっても平行線だった
The negotiations got nowhere.
どこまでずうずうしいんだろう
How utterly brazen he is!/What gall he has!
どこまでも知らないと言い張る気だね
You mean to go on insisting that you don't know?
どこまでしらを切るつもりだ
How long are you going to pretend ignorance?
どこまで【何処まで】の英語・英訳 - 和英辞書 - 英語辞書 - goo辞書

~ば is for conditional, so どこまで勝手をすれば refers to the limit/extent of "how you behave selfishly".
どこまで勝手をすりゃあ、気が済むってんだ!
How selfishly you behave, will you be satisfied?
(This is sarcasm, of course, so it actually means "You have already behaved too selfishly!")
 
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In English, parents often scold their kids by saying "How many times do I have to tell you not to ...."?

It's a rhetorical question, intended to express exasperation at the repeated (and apparently futile) admonishing. It's not a literal query of the number of times scolded. In the Japanese example above, the feeling is similar. The questioner is not asking for a literal measurement.
どこまで勝手をすりゃあ、気が済むってんだ!
Just how selfish do you need to be in order to feel satisfied.
In today's parlance we would say, "Selfish, much?"
 
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Quite literally this means "until [where/what point]... if you are selfish.. your spirit is satisfied." -> another translation would be "How selfish will[/must] you be, before you are satisfied."
 

Toritoribe

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Your interpretation can't be correct, I'm afraid. まで should be put after 気が済む in that meaning. どこまで modifies 勝手をすりゃあ there. See the difference.
気が済むまでに、どれほど勝手すんだ/すりゃあいいんだ!
 
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I disagree. The point at which the person will be satisfied is also the point that the person has reached in their selfishness. It is the same point. So it does not matter if you say in English.. Until you are satisfied / before you are satisfied / in order to be satisfied. The question is about how selfish that person will be until that point is reached. Then at that point, they are satisfied. So you would say in English, 'How .. before/until you are[/in order to be] satisfied.' Rather than try and twist English into something that doesn't sound like something one would say.
Majestic's 'Just how selfish do you need to be in order to feel satisfied.' - also contains the same implied 'before' as 'in order to feel satisfied'.
Sdchach's 'How far must you have it your own way until you're satisfied.' - Also contains 'until' satisfaction.
I think these are fine too.. I stated... 'another translation would be... ' I was not disagreeing with them.

You did not tell others that they are incorrect, and yet they used a construction that you say would require '気が済むまでに'.

気が済むまでに、どれほど勝手すんだ/すりゃあいいんだ!is simply a re-ordering.. but I'd translate it the same in English.

Unfortunately I thought 'How selfishly you behave, will you be satisfied? ' sounds a little archaic... perhaps Shakespearean :) ...
Regards
 
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Toritoribe

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It's not just re-ordering. Whether you translate it the same in English or not, 気が済むまで and どこまで勝手をすれば/するか express different things in Japanese. I mean how to express the meaning, not just the meaning. It can't be said that all the expressions that have the same meaning are the same, right?
 
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気が済むまで and どこまで勝手をすれば/するか express different things in Japanese
I'm not sure what you mean. Of course these mean very different things. 'Until I am satisfied" and the second which is not easily translated into English. You can say (if it was そこまで/その程) 'if you are selfish that much' .. 'if you are that selfish', but what do you do in English with どこまで? 'if you are selfish to where/what point', 'if you are how much selfish'?

The どこまで expresses the rhetorical question 'to what extent'... the rest 勝手をすりゃあ、気が済むって is the idea "if you do A then B" .. As three of us have displayed in our translations... You would express this in English as "How much/long will you do A, until/before B occurs"

Your suggestion of 気が済むまでに、どれほど勝手すんだ/すりゃあいいんだ! I don't see much difference except a clause inversion... Until you are satisfied, oh how selfish you must be!
 

Toritoribe

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Do you mean そ程?
How do you translate... "I am embarrassed" and "I am ashamed" into Japanese?
こんな間違いをしでかしちまうたあ、こっぱずかしくてばつがわりいや。

どこまで only modifies 勝手をすりゃあ, and doesn't modify 気が済むってんだ in the original sentence. "Indefinite demonstrative (ど in こそあど) + ~ば/たら" is a typical conditional clause used in rhetorical/sarcastic questions. どこまで勝手をすりゃあ is talking about the extent of "being selfish", whereas 気が済むまで expresses the extent of "being satisfied".
 
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