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ように

raikado

先輩
29 Oct 2012
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Hello,

I have some questions about ように, hoping to better understand how it works.

1) It's about ~ように言う (e.g. (人)にもっと頑張るように言う). I know that this means "tell someone to do...", but it doesn't make much sense unless I take ~ように言う as a set expression.

Is this actually ~ように言う(=~ようにしてくださいと言う)? So basically, the と is omitted?

2)
(多く「ように」の形で)ある動作・作用の目的・目標である意を表す。「わかりやすくなるように並べかえましょう」
ようだ【様だ】の意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書
  • 列車に間に合うように早く家を出た I left home early in order to catch the train.
  • 会に遅れない様に急いだ I hurried 「so as not to be [so that I wouldn't be] late for the meeting.
When we have this ように, is it the short form of ようにして?
列車に間に合うようにして、早く家を出た
会に遅れない様にして、急いだ

I am just curious if the meanings 1 and 4 are related (and ようにして seems to be the only way to make No. 4 have the No. 1 meaning.
ある事物の性質・状態が他の事物に似ている意を表す。「今日は真夏のような暑さだ」
 
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1)
Unlike ~ようにと言う, ~よう(に)言う is indirect quotation, i.e., もっと頑張るように is not what the speaker really said. It might be もっと頑張ってください, for instance.

2)
ように is not from ようにして. In fact, わかりやすくなるようにして並べかえましょう doesn't make sense. Those examples actually mean わかりやすくなるようにするために並べかえましょう, 列車に間に合うようにするために早く家を出た and 会に遅れない様にするために急いだ respectively, thus, ~ように indicates the purpose of the main predicative, not the preparation for it/what is done before it.

I am just curious if the meanings 1 and 4 are related
よう has various meanings.
よう【様】の意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書
 
Thank you! It makes much more sense now, knowing that 4 is a different kind of よう.

1) Ohh, I see. What kind of よう is this though? 5 fits the best but I thought that 5 comes from ようにして so it can't work. (ようだ【様だ】の意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書)

2) Ok. So in the next 2 sentences it's the same kind (4) of ように, right?
  • (携帯電話が)濡れないように、ジッパーつきのポリ袋に携帯電話を入れて、閉めます。
  • about caramelized apples: あめがつかないように、氷の上に並べられています。 In this one I don't think the ようにするために rephrasing works since the subjects of the two sentences are different but I understand the idea. ("They are lined up on top of the ice so that the candy doesn't stick")

What's the meaning of the next sentence though?
切符が出てきます。おつりがあるときは、おつりも忘れないように取ります
写真解説|見てみよう|第13課 (middle column, 4th row)
Does this also have the 4th meaning? "When there is change, take it (as soon as it comes out) so you don't forget it."?
 
1)
4 (「思う」「言う」などに付いて)会話や思考の内容。または、その下に引用して続けた会話や思考の内容。
よう【様】の意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書

2)
It's no problem if the subjects are different.
彼女が起きないように(するために)、彼はゆっくりドアを開けた。

It's more likely "in order not to leave it (= the change) there." There is no implication of "as soon as it comes out".
 
What's the meaning of the next sentence though?
切符が出てきます。おつりがあるときは、おつりも忘れないように取ります
写真解説|見てみよう|第13課 (middle column, 4th row)
Does this also have the 4th meaning? "When there is change, take it (as soon as it comes out) so you don't forget it."?
It's more likely "in order not to leave it (= the change) there." There is no implication of "as soon as it comes out".
Hello,

Sorry to be reviving this thread after so long. I saw a recent post about ように which made me remember about this sentence (I was looking through a database of grammar issues and sentences that I keep. I don't have that good of a memory :D)

I was wondering, in the sentence quoted above, wouldn't it make more sense for ように to be used as ~やり方で/方法で (as in this thread: ~ように as "manner"), instead of "purpose"?
I am thinking something like "The ticket comes out. When there is change take it (the ticket) without forgetting the change."
 
も shows that the object of 取ります is おつり, not 切符. The action 切符を取る is not mentioned since it's obvious. I don't think my interpretation "purpose" is wrong. Even if 切符 is the object, おつりも忘れないやり方/方法で切符を取る doesn't make much sense. (I edited my post in the tread you referred to, by the way.)
 
Ok. Thanks for reconfirming it! I just saw this sentence again and I thought that "purpose" is kind of strange in this case, so I thought I should ask. But now that you've mentioned it, I agree that ~やり方で/方法で seems stranger.
 
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