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ように

raikado

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Hello,

I have some questions about ように, hoping to better understand how it works.

1) It's about ~ように言う (e.g. (人)にもっと頑張るように言う). I know that this means "tell someone to do...", but it doesn't make much sense unless I take ~ように言う as a set expression.

Is this actually ~ように言う(=~ようにしてくださいと言う)? So basically, the と is omitted?

2)
(多く「ように」の形で)ある動作・作用の目的・目標である意を表す。「わかりやすくなるように並べかえましょう」
ようだ【様だ】の意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書
  • 列車に間に合うように早く家を出た I left home early in order to catch the train.
  • 会に遅れない様に急いだ I hurried 「so as not to be [so that I wouldn't be] late for the meeting.
When we have this ように, is it the short form of ようにして?
列車に間に合うようにして、早く家を出た
会に遅れない様にして、急いだ

I am just curious if the meanings 1 and 4 are related (and ようにして seems to be the only way to make No. 4 have the No. 1 meaning.
ある事物の性質・状態が他の事物に似ている意を表す。「今日は真夏のような暑さだ」
 
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Toritoribe

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1)
Unlike ~ようにと言う, ~よう(に)言う is indirect quotation, i.e., もっと頑張るように is not what the speaker really said. It might be もっと頑張ってください, for instance.

2)
ように is not from ようにして. In fact, わかりやすくなるようにして並べかえましょう doesn't make sense. Those examples actually mean わかりやすくなるようにするために並べかえましょう, 列車に間に合うようにするために早く家を出た and 会に遅れない様にするために急いだ respectively, thus, ~ように indicates the purpose of the main predicative, not the preparation for it/what is done before it.

I am just curious if the meanings 1 and 4 are related
よう has various meanings.
よう【様】の意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書
 

raikado

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Thank you! It makes much more sense now, knowing that 4 is a different kind of よう.

1) Ohh, I see. What kind of よう is this though? 5 fits the best but I thought that 5 comes from ようにして so it can't work. (ようだ【様だ】の意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書)

2) Ok. So in the next 2 sentences it's the same kind (4) of ように, right?
  • (携帯電話が)濡れないように、ジッパーつきのポリ袋に携帯電話を入れて、閉めます。
  • about caramelized apples: あめがつかないように、氷の上に並べられています。 In this one I don't think the ようにするために rephrasing works since the subjects of the two sentences are different but I understand the idea. ("They are lined up on top of the ice so that the candy doesn't stick")
What's the meaning of the next sentence though?
切符が出てきます。おつりがあるときは、おつりも忘れないように取ります
写真解説|見てみよう|第13課 (middle column, 4th row)
Does this also have the 4th meaning? "When there is change, take it (as soon as it comes out) so you don't forget it."?
 

Toritoribe

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1)
4 (「思う」「言う」などに付いて)会話や思考の内容。または、その下に引用して続けた会話や思考の内容。
よう【様】の意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書

2)
It's no problem if the subjects are different.
彼女が起きないように(するために)、彼はゆっくりドアを開けた。

It's more likely "in order not to leave it (= the change) there." There is no implication of "as soon as it comes out".
 

raikado

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This makes so much more sense now. Thank you very much!
 
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