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も and に / double が / どうもこうも / なんてことしてくれるの

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Hello,

I have a couple of grammar questions. Could you tell me if I am getting these sentences right, please?

1) ちょっと・・・人ゴミ疲れたな・・・
It's clear from the context that he means he is tired of the crowd. Does that mean that も is replacing に here, just like は can sometimes replace に?

2) 火の回りに集まってる今周辺の人間が少なくていーんだよ!
Is the first が the "exhaustive listing が"? If I understand this correctly then the sentence should mean something like: "Only now, when the people are gathered around the fire and there are few people at the outskirts, is good."

3) あんたとこんな話すなんて思ってなかったし・・・
Is のを/ことを omitted after こんな?

4)Boy: おい、ちひろ・・・どーゆーつもりだ?
Chihiro: どーもこーも、隠れるとこ探してたんでしょう!?

The guy is searching for a place to hide. He receives help from this girl, something that he didn't expect and it's also interfering with his plans. He asks her what she is planning, to which she responds with that sentence.

a) Does どうもこうも literally mean "every method", just like どいつもこいつも means "everybody"?

b) Even if a) is true, I am still uncertain of what it really means

EDIT:

5) まったく・・・なんてことしてくれるの?

I don't really understand how this sentence translates literally. I found one translated example, but it doesn't really help since it doesn't seem to be a literal translation.

なんてことしてくれるのよ、もうありえない
サ Look at what you’ve done! I can’t believe this.

In this last sentence, I considered the fact that の is used just for nominalization, but it is followed by よ, so this one too sounds like a question. But if it is a question, the speaker is talking about something the addressee has done, so why isn't the sentence in the past?
 
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Toritoribe

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1)
Except the nuance of "too/also", yes.

2)
今が: the subject of いい
周辺の人間が少なくて: an adverbial clause explaining the reason why 今がいい
人間が: the subject of 少ない

3)
a variation of an adverb こんなに

4)
どうもこうもない / どうでもなくこうでもない
It's nothing (but looking for...) (= I was just (looking for...))

This どう refers to どう in どーゆーつもり.

5)
That's a rhetorical question; そんなことしないで. ~てくれる is for sarcasm here, as the opposite to "to give a favor of doing for me".
の is a sentence final particle; a female version of んだ. This の/ん is the explanatory の/ん.
 
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Thank you! There are still a few things that I don't understand though.

5) So it should mean something like "What a lovely thing you have done for me!" (sarcastic, of course). Still, if it's about what has been done, why is くれた not used instead?

Or is it a general sentence: "What lovely things you do for me!"?

4) I'm not sure I understand. Do you mean that どうもこうも is the shortened version of どうもこうもない?

This どう refers to どう in どーゆーつもり.
I never tried to break どうもこうも down. What does こうもない refer to?
 

Toritoribe

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4)
Right. She's actually saying どうもこうもないわよ / どうでもなくこうでもないわよ.

"Refers to" doesn't seem to be appropriate, sorry. I meant she said どうもこうも because he had said どういう. That's a kind of word play (or 揚げ足取り).

5)
くれる and くれた are both correct. Further, くれてる also can be possible in most cases, probably because the speaker still suffers from what was/has been done even now.
 
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5) Both くれる and くれた are correct, but they are not exactly the same, right? Do you think that なんてことしてくれるのよ = "What (lovely) things you do for me!" is an accurate translation? (I am mostly interested in the tense I used)
 
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Toritoribe

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なんてことしてくれるのよ、いつもいつも! is a present habit, therefore くれた can't be used here, whereas when the speaker is referring to a specific "what you've done", there is no difference between くれる and くれた (and also くれてる).
 
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Sorry, I might be missing something obvious, but I really don't get it. Shouldn't くれる be used to refer to present habits or future actions (as you also mentioned)? (In any case, not for actions that happened in the past). Why can くれる also be used when the speaker is talking about "what you've done". The action here is in the past, yet a present tense is the same as a past tense. Why is that?

Or, in other words, the speaker is referring to what has been done but uses くれる, which is present....why?

I understand that this is colloquial and I shouldn't analyse it so much, but still...this seems really weird to me; to use present tense to talk about the past.
 

Toritoribe

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The tense in Japanese is different from the one in English. "The speaker still suffers from what was/has been done even now" is the reason why くれる/くれてる can be used, as I wrote. It is present or present progressive, not past, in this sense.

なんてことしてくれるの? can't be used for future things.
 
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"The speaker still suffers from what was/has been done even now
I thought this is the very reason why くれてる can be used and くれる can't. I think this is the first time that I've seen the present form used like this. Could you give me some other examples where the present is used when "the speaker still suffers from what has been done", please?
 

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なんで教えてくれないの?(=くれなかったの?)
先日はありがとうございます。(=ありがとうございました)(Although this is not for bad things, of course.)
 
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At first glance, the first sentence seems like "Why won't you tell me?". Is it all about the context? For example (Please, do correct these if there is something weird. I only practice reading, so I am not used to making up sentences):

a) さき、明日までに宿題しなくてはいけないと言われた。知ったでしょう?じゃ、なんで教えてくれないの?(=くれなかったの?)
Earlier, I was told that we must do the homework until tomorrow. You knew, right? Then, why didn't you tell me?

b) A:どこに行くの?
B:ダメ!秘密だ。
A:なんで教えてくれないの?

Here, the last sentence means "Why aren't you telling me?" / "Why won't you tell me?", right?

So in the end, the context is what makes the difference?

EDIT: Funny. I read another chapter and encountered this thing again (it's clear it refers to the past from the context). Now, example a) doesn't seem so weird anymore, but instead I started doubting if example b) uses the right tense.

Anyway, while I still don't understand why a present tense can be used like this, I think I will stop worrying about it so much and just get used to it.

Thanks a lot for your patience, Toritoribe. I know I must have annoyed you with these questions that probably don't even matter. It just seemed too weird, a present verb used for something that has already happened.

P.S. I would still like to know if those examples are correct. :D
 
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Toritoribe

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Yes, your examples work fine.
Japanese people also tend to be confused at the difference in tense when learning English. I, too, no doubt have made so many mistakes about it in this forum.:p
 
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Hello,
Today I found myself agonizing again over this problem of "present form when it feels like past". I had an idea that might help me understand this a little bit better.

If we remove the explanatory の from the end, does the sentence still feel like it refers to the past? Or by removing の the sentence seems out of place?
まったく・・・なんてことしてくれるか
さき、明日までに宿題しなくてはいけないと言われた。知ったでしょう?じゃ、なんで教えてくれないか

I know I am ingoring "先日はありがとうございます。(=ありがとうございました)(Although this is not for bad things, of course.)", but somehow this one seems different. I have no problem with understanding the meaning, unlike the other ones.
 
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Toritoribe

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まったく…なんてことしてくれるかな works fine.

さっき、明日までに宿題しなくちゃいけないって言われたわ。あなた、知ってた(ん)でしょう?なんで教えてくれないの(よ)?
(female version. The last の can't be omitted.)
 
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まったく…なんてことしてくれるかな works fine.
I don't think I can grasp the meaning anymore. The original one seemed very aggressive while this one...not so much. In what way/ In what sort of mood would that sentence be said?

As for the last one, is there no way to remove the の and still keep the present tense?

EDIT: Nonetheless, am I right to assume that I will never see the plain form used like this outside of colloquial speech (e.g. news)?
 

Toritoribe

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If you are talking about the difference between まったく…なんてことしてくれるの? and まったく…なんてことしてくれるかな, they can have the same nuance "being irritated".

の can't be omitted even with the past or -te iru form in the second example.

I don't think sarcastic tone is used in news.
 
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If you are talking about the difference between まったく…なんてことしてくれるの? and まったく…なんてことしてくれるかな, they can have the same nuance "being irritated".
Hmm, it is still hard to imagine in what manner it would be said. Hearing it would probably help, but that can't be helped I guess.

I don't think sarcastic tone is used in news.
Yeah, you are right, there is no way it would. Silly question.

Well, thank you!
I was counting on の to be the one that does the magic and lets くれる be in present tense but since you said that in the first sentence it can be eliminated, I was obviously wrong.
 
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