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「そいつをそこから動かすなよ」

そいつ refers to a cat that the speaker dislikes.

I read this as meaning "Get that cat away from there!", with な indicating emotion or emphasis.

Actually, it apparently means "Don't move the cat", with な being a negative.

Is my interpretation also possible? How do you tell which is meant?
 

Toritoribe

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な is basically for admiration when indicating emotion or emphasis, so よくそいつをそこから動かすな(あ) can express that the speaker admires the person for their ability to move it from there. The easiest-to-understand point to show that な must be negative imperative in the example sentence is the order of the particles "なよ". The admiration な can't be put before よ, i.e., 動かすよな(あ) is admiration.

I've read a linguist explains why sentence final partices have an appropriate order and why the order sometimes can't be interchangeable, but it's very long and complicated even in Japanese...
 
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Mike Cash

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I would be more likely to take the sentence as a command to not let the cat get away, not as a command to not move the cat.
 
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Thank you both.

Toritoribe, do you agree with Mike Cash that 動かす is causative of 動く (if I'm understanding correctly) and not plain form of 動かす? How do you tell?
 

Mike Cash

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I sort of got the feeling the speaker was going to get a stick to beat the cat with (or planning something nefarious at any rate) and wanted to make sure the cat would still be there when he came back.

There would be more likelihood the cat would move on its own than that the person addressed would just suddenly take it in his head to pick up and relocate the cat, so less need to speak to prevent the latter than the former as well.

動かす is, I believe, a possible alternative formation of 動かせる. Maybe I'm just more likely to see it that way as my personal habit is to always use the shorter alternative causatives. (飲ます instead of 飲ませる or さす instead of させる, for example).
 
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Further background information, should it make a difference. The cat is sitting on the addressee's lap. The speaker has his pet rat with him, so doesn't want the cat anywhere near.
 

Mike Cash

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Further background information, should it make a difference. The cat is sitting on the addressee's lap. The speaker has his pet rat with him, so doesn't want the cat anywhere near.
Then absolutely it is the causative.

Wouldn't "Don't move the cat!" be a rather bizarre thing to say, especially in a situation like that? "Don't let that cat move!", on the other hand, is a perfectly understandable thing to say.
 

Toritoribe

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動かす is a transitive verb, and at the same time, has a nuance of the causative form of the intransitive counterpart 動く.

うごかす【動かす】
自分の目的にかなうよう人を行動させる。「思いのままに人を―・す」
うごかす【動かす】の意味 - 国語辞書 - goo辞書

In fact, in this type of "intransitive(-u) - transitive(-asu)" pairs, e.g. 沸く - 沸かす, 乾く - 乾かす, 減る - 減らす, 照る - 照らす, the causative form of the intransitive verbs doesn't exist. 動かせる, 沸かせる 乾かせる,,, are all ONLY used as the potential form of the transitive verbs 動かす, 沸かす, 乾かす,,, respectively. Instead, the transitive verbs 動かす, 沸かす, 乾かす have the function of the causative form of the intransitive verbs. These transitive verbs are considered to be derived from the causative form of the intransitive verbs. (~(さ)す is equivalent to ~(さ)せる in modern Japanese.)
 
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Lol I remembered having this massive debate with fw regarding this. 動かす is Vt and 動かす can be alternative causative of 動く but that's just coincidence. They have similar meaning but there are some situations where they are not interchangeable and they sometimes take different particles.

End of the day, Just don't get too technical and avoid the さすconjugation for causative of Vi altogether and no one gets hurt. It is only used in its passive form as short hand.

But yes can be confusing esp for Japanese learners.
 

Toritoribe

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It is NOT coincidence at all. Etymologically, 動かす was really derived from the causative form of 動く, had other meanings than causative, and then is treated as a intransitive verb now (so-called 派生動詞).
もし興味がおありなら驚く - 驚かす, 脱ぐ - 脱がす, 滑る - 滑らす等のグループと前掲のグループとの違いを考えてみられると面白いと思いますよ。
あと「使役の役割を持つ」と指摘したのであって、「使役形である」とは言っていません。助詞が違うのはそのせいです。お間違えのなきよう、念のため。
因みに日本語の自他ペアは一方が他方の派生動詞であるものがこれら以外にも相当数存在します。どちらがどちらの派生形であるかは、古語形の活用をもとに分析がなされています。
 
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It is a coincidence that for 動く alternative causative is the same as Vt in form only. Yes functionally different. It only applies to C-2 pattern verb pairs. Case in point 上げる 上がる pair doesn't suffer from the fact that 上がらす doesn't conjugate exactly the same as 上げる.

Anyway this doesn't really matter since no one in modern Japanese use the alternative causative except in its passive form and they don't teach it in Japanese textbooks for foreigners anyway.
 

Toritoribe

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No. You are completely wrong, I'm afraid. I have to say again that it is NOT a coincidence at all.

上がる - 上げるを例出しても意味ないですよ。そのペアは別グループに属してるんですから。こちらは他動詞が元動詞で自動詞が派生動詞になっています。細分類上では古語形が下二段活用「上ぐ[あぐ]」で、それから活用形変化により一段動詞「上げる」が生まれ、それからさらに自動詞形「上がる」が派生するという経緯を経たグループです。同じグループ("-u" --> "-eru" - "-aru")には曲ぐ --> 曲げる - 曲がる、当つ --> 当てる - 当たる、決む --> 決める - 決まる等も属しています。
古語形の分析が必要だといったのはこういう意味です。口語形のみを見ていてもどちらがどちらの派生動詞かは判定できませんから。まさか自他ペアの語形変化が"-u" - "-asu"の一つのパターンしかないとお考えではないでしょう?

もし興味がおありなら参考文献載せておきますから参照してみてください。言語学的分析には古語の知識が必須だという理由がわかると思いますよ。言語学の研究書なので読んで面白いかどうかは保証できませんが。

『自動詞と他動詞との派生対応』国立国語研究所日本語教育センター日本語教育研修室編
『国語における自動詞と他動詞』島田昌彦著
『日本語のシンタクスと意味』寺村秀夫著
『日本語文法入門』吉川武時著
『新版日本語教育事典』早津恵美子著
『文法と語形成』影山太郎著

「動かす」が「動く」から派生し、自動詞の使役的用法の一部を担うという情報は学習者にとっても有益だと考えます。前記の通りこのグループに特有の、自動詞の使役形が存在しないという独特な特徴の存在を知るだけでも意味がありますから。
 
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負けたなトリトリベさん。まあ、偶然というより口語の欠陥だといっていいでしょう。(^^)
 
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