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ても vs のに question

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ても vs のに
1. I'm wondering about the differences between ても vs のに, specifically in the "non-hypothetical/supposition" contexts.

Examples:
1. 8 月に なっても / なったのに 低温続きで, 稲は青立ちの状態である。
2. 彼は大人 でも / なのに いつもとぼけています
The 8 月になる and 彼は大人 are "real facts" here and ても/のに mean "even though, although, etc.". Are there any differences?
Only thing I've found is that のに has some emotive overtones and ても doesn't.

2. Side question about the 2nd example - It's from here - http://forum.wordreference.com/showt...8#post10698808, but I think でも is wrong here. Does it have to be である/であっても in this case instead? Also, だのに seems to be correct here (according to 広辞苑 - 「助動詞「だ」には終止形にも付く」, I'm guessing it's just an optional connector?
 
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ても vs のに question

You are right in ても can't follow a noun and must proceed a verb in which case であっても is needed.

Also のに when preceded by a noun, な is used so なのに is correct. Pretty sure だのに is wrong in modern Japanese at least since だ's 連体形 is な and you can't have 終止形 and still continue with the sentence like nothing has happened. That's the whole point of 連体形.

FYI 連体形 and 終止形 is 99% the same in modern Japanese and is not taught to foreigners. だ is special though. If you say である really fast you apparently get だ but it has some screwed up conjugations.

As for difference, not really sure. のに to me is more emphatic and really implies 意外と. Also some things just don't work with のに like you can string てもs together for extra punch but not noni.

掃いても掃いても玄関は落ち葉ですぐいっぱいになった

Your first example is not quite right. 8月になっても is 仮定 especially the whole sentence is in non past. のに follows past tense so it's 既定.

After some checking I don't think there is a difference. Any differences are purely grammatical restrictions as in のに can't be used with a command but can be used as 終助詞 etc. Also ても is far more commonly used in the 仮定 form so it can be ambiguous, so たとえ etc can be added to clarify. のに is always used with facts so it's not ambiguous.
 
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Toritoribe

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ても vs のに
1. I'm wondering about the differences between ても vs のに, specifically in the "non-hypothetical/supposition" contexts.

Examples:
1. 8 月に なっても / なったのに 低温続きで, 稲は青立ちの状態である。
2. 彼は大人 でも / なのに いつもとぼけています
The 8 月になる and 彼は大人 are "real facts" here and ても/のに mean "even though, although, etc.". Are there any differences?
Only thing I've found is that のに has some emotive overtones and ても doesn't.

2. Side question about the 2nd example - It's from here - http://forum.wordreference.com/showt...8#post10698808, but I think でも is wrong here. Does it have to be である/であっても in this case instead? Also, だのに seems to be correct here (according to 広辞苑 - 「助動詞「だ」には終止形にも付く」, I'm guessing it's just an optional connector?
~ても is originally made of "-te form + も(too/also)", so the meaning differs depending on the context, as same as the -te form. In your first example, 8月になっても expresses that the situation continues also when August comes/in August, therefore, unlike an adversative conjunction ~のに, 8月になっても温続きで also makes perfect sense (as same as in July, also in August). In conclusion, 8月になっても and 8月になったのに are not the same there.

で is considered a particle in "noun + でも", so でも means "even" rather than "although" in this structure. In your second example sentence, 彼は大人であってもいつもとぼけています still doesn't make much sense, probably because it sounds like a conditional. のに must be used there, anyway.

広辞苑 doesn't say 終止形にも付くことがある? だのに sounds a bit oldish. It's rarely used nowadays.
 
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[MENTION=60047]Morphling[/MENTION]
That last part you said is pretty much what I've found as well.
[MENTION=37151]Toritoribe[/MENTION]
I'm still not clear about 8月になっても and 8月になったのに. With the 高温続き example, the only difference I can see, based on your post is that ても simply expresses that the situation continues from before (last month), while のに focuses on it becoming 8月 and 高温続き is counter to what the speaker expected from8月 (possibly with feeling of annoyance, dissatisfaction, etc.)? Kind of a dodgy theory, but I can't think of anything else :(.

About 彼は大人であってもいつもとぼけています - I can see how it would seem like conditional in 仮定 context, but with a factual meaning (大人である factual), I don't know why it's wrong. Mind explaining a bit more?

About the だのに thing -
From 広辞苑, full line (接続助詞。体言の代用をする助詞ノと助詞ニとが結合したもの。活用語の連体形に付く。助動詞「だ」には終止形にも付く) and also 「温厚な人だ―怒った」example.
大辞林 has this written - 活用語の連体形に接続する。形容動詞型活用の場合,終止形に接続することもある。Example - 「もうすっかり丈夫な(だ)―,旅行を許してくれない」.
Some other dictionary - 「語法」活用語の連体形に付く。形容動詞、助動詞「だ」の類では終止形にも付く(やや俗語的)。「来ていたはずだのに、姿が見えない」.

I guess it doesn't really matter since it's rarely used now. First time I see it used (that link).
 

Toritoribe

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のに expresses not just that the main clause is contrary to what the speaker expected, but that it's contrary to common sense. 高温続き in August is not uncommon, so 8月になったのに高温続き is odd, unlike 8月になっても高温続き.

大人であっても can't be used for a real fact. The problem seems to be in the expression 大人である to me. (It might be more likely the problem of collocation, not grammar.)

About the だのに thing -
From 広辞苑, full line (接続助詞。体言の代用をする助詞ノと助詞ニとが結合したもの。活用語の連体形に付く。助動詞「だ」には終止形にも付く) and also 「温厚な人だ―怒った」example.
I see. The version of 広辞苑 I have and yours would be different, then.
 
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I see. That pretty much covers it then. Thanks again.

I have one more unrelated question if you don't mind. Need a confirmation on something.

I was searching the forum for something and saw one of your old posts (https://jref.com/forum/learning-jap...vs-%81%60%82%F0%82%B7%82%E9-53158/#post730246). The part I'm interested in is 私は友達に明日来るよう電話しました. I'm assuming that this よう is the ように used like an indirect imperative (ように言う、ように命じる、etc.). Can に be dropped from ように freely or is there any difference? Judging from alc 来るよう 言うの英訳|英辞郎 on the WEB:アルク I don't see any differences, but I'm not sure.
 
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ても vs のに question

大人であっても can't be used for a real fact. The problem seems to be in the expression 大人である to me. (It might be more likely the problem of collocation, not grammar.)
If you add いくら, いくら大人であっても, does it make it better? I think the problem is ても's first usage for assumptions is far more common.

よう and ように are practically the same. 「ため」のように、「に」無しではより硬い表現です。
 

Toritoribe

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I was searching the forum for something and saw one of your old posts (https://jref.com/forum/learning-jap...vs-%81%60%82%F0%82%B7%82%E9-53158/#post730246). The part I'm interested in is 私は友達に明日来るよう電話しました. I'm assuming that this よう is the ように used like an indirect imperative (ように言う、ように命じる、etc.). Can に be dropped from ように freely or is there any difference? Judging from alc 来るよう 言うの英訳|英辞郎 on the WEB:アルク I don't see any differences, but I'm not sure.
よう is always indirect imperative, whereas ように can also mean "like" or "in order to".

彼に歌うよう話した(indirect imperative)
彼は歌うように話した(He spoke like singing.)

If you add いくら, いくら大人であっても, does it make it better? I think the problem is ても's first usage for assumptions is far more common.
I can't think of any example of 大人であっても being used as 大人なのに.
 
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